| flatcreeker | -- 08-20-2021 @ 5:06 AM |
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I need a device for 6 volt electrical work on the '39 merc. I have a Fluke multimeter but it doesn't do current. Recommendations?
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| cliftford | -- 08-20-2021 @ 11:16 AM |
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I assume your fluke meter is digital. Get an analog meter. The kind that has a needle.
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 08-20-2021 @ 2:59 PM |
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I have a Fluke digital but my old standby is my Simpson 260. I purchased it back in the late '60s and it's my go to meter. You can pick them up at garage sales for as little as $20, because everybody wants digital. As for your question, any big box store such as Lowe's of Home Depot has a selection of volt meters. I would suggest something mid range for around $30. As long as it does 6,12V, and continuity it will work for auto use.
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-20-2021 @ 3:30 PM |
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Analog is not only cheaper, but is the preferred type for our needs with the old Fords: to be specific, while checking the ignition system while the engine is running, you can see where the analog needle is pointing, but the digital meter will light up all segments and read 88888888 for everything. Alan
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-20-2021 @ 4:32 PM |
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Thanks to all for the input. Yes, my Fluke is digital and ok for what it is. I'm a new, or rather a returning, classic car owner (recently accepted custody of a strong running '39 Merc fordor survivor) and only able to do light wrenching from topside. I did, years ago, have all the tools and equip for this game but, not so much now. I, now, recall having an ancient engine analyzer, of course it was analog. Thinking it was labeled Sears/Penske. Have seen some at swap meets recently. That would do all I need, and more. I'll be looking around for something analog. Thanks to all.
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| TomO | -- 08-21-2021 @ 8:19 AM |
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Check the operation manual for any Sears Engine analyzer before you buy it. They have a 12V version that does not work on 6V systems and an electronic model that only works on NEG ground. The units are powered by the car's electrical system. Look for one that uses D cells to power the meter. Make sure that you get guarantee that the tool works and has an operation manual. Stay away from the vintage Sun equipment. Most of them require a mercury battery in order to be accurate and those batteries are no longer sold in the US. If you shop at a swap meet, carry a 6 volt lantern battery that you checked with your Fluke and test the accuracy of the voltmeter. Tom
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| 1931 Flamingo | -- 08-21-2021 @ 10:43 AM |
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Harbor Freight is your friend. Paul in CT
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-21-2021 @ 3:02 PM |
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Tom- Thanks for the valuable information. As I recall, the ones which I thought might work for me had a ranges for several voltages including 6 and 12. Some had selector for 4, 6, or 8 cylinders. Do not know that I noticed whether they had the ability to use the power provided by the vehicle being tested. All I saw required a battery but I don't recall which battery. Based on their age, it would have been a C or D cell. I do know that anything I considered would first get a close inspection of the battery contacts as many of these, if left with battery installed for an extended period, would suffer serious corrosion. Do you know if these analyzers typically had the capacity to test coils/condensers? Load test batteries? Thanks again- Doug This message was edited by flatcreeker on 8-21-21 @ 3:04 PM
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| TomO | -- 08-22-2021 @ 8:15 AM |
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Doug, I am not familiar with most of the testers available on E-Bay. Typically you need a coil tester to test the coil and condenser. SnapOn made a good one in the 1980's and they show up on E-Bay occasionally. I bought mine at a swap meet back in 1987 for $10. I don't think that you will be able to find one for that price today. Here is a link to one like I bought. http://www.2040-parts.com/snap-on-coil-tester-vintage-nice-1950-chevy-ford-buick-rat-rod-i8902/ You really don't need the coil tester or a battery load tester. To test the coil and distributor spark you can just hold a spark plug wire near a head nut and look for a nice blue spark 1/2" long at idle speed. You can also use a tool like this: https://www.amazon.com/OEMTOOLS-25069-Adjustable-Ignition-Tester/dp/B0014WDFLY If the engine won't start, try connecting a jumper directly from the battery to the coil input. To test the battery, I just use my volt meter. Charge the battery fully, connect you meter probes across the battery and crank the engine with the ignition off. You should read about 5.5V or more. If the reading is less take the battery to a shop that will test it. If it tests good, your starter may be going bad or the battery doesn't have enough CCA to handle the load. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 8-22-21 @ 9:38 AM
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-26-2021 @ 7:06 AM |
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Tom, Thanks for the information. I like the tester you identified on Amazon. I hadn't seen one like it with an adjustable gap. I have a good starting, very strong running, very original 239 cu in which only recently started missing intermittently. It generally occurs after driving 10-15 miles in moderate ambient heat, upon accelerating under load (typically going up a hill in 2nd or 3rd). It is just a quick stutter/stumble which repeats every second or two as long as I'm accelerating. I have very limited experience with early flatheads (mine is a '39 Merc) but trying to learn as I wish to do whatever I can myself. It'll likely be limited to what I can do from topside as physical limitations and limited shop equipment dictate. What I read leads me to suspect the coil. It's running a Skip Haney distributor and coil. I'm leaning toward converting to an external coil for cooler temps. I'm located in hilly, some say mountainous, N.E. Georgia and though we've experienced a mild Spring and Summer, it will be warmer. I do go on. This is one fine Merc, expertly curated and maintained by another Tom in Washington from whom I recently acquired.
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| TomO | -- 08-27-2021 @ 2:38 PM |
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Bad coils seem to fail on flat land as well as going up hills. Going to a coil adapter may introduce new problems for you. There have been many instances of new coils failing shortly after installation. I would stick with the Skip Haney coil. Test the spark with the engine idling and if it is OK, the coil and condenser are probably good. If the spark is weak or orange color, replace the condenser and repeat the test. Race the engine to about 30 MPH and hold it at that RPM for a couple of minutes. If it starts missing, you may have a problem with the distributor rotor arcing to the distributor shaft. The fix for that is to install some shrink tubing or wrap the shaft with electrical tape. Your problem could also be fuel related. Try pulling out the choke about 1/4 of the way and see if it improves the condition. The flex line going to the fuel pump is the first thing that I would change if the condition improves, they have a history of deteriorating internally a starving the engine for fuel. You can also check fuel delivery by performing the fuel delivery test that I ahve explained in many posts. Use the SEARCH function searching all of the posts for "fuel delivery". Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-29-2021 @ 8:22 AM |
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Greetings Tom- Thanks a ton for the diagnostic suggestions. I am a novice and those sound like some things I can and shall do. I did yesterday replace the paper fuel filter and associated black rubber hose sections with new. These are between the mechanical fuel pump and carburetor (Holley 94 Model 91-99). I shall also search "Fuel Delivery". This is more helpful than you can know. Thanks again! Doug
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| TomO | -- 08-29-2021 @ 8:40 AM |
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Please post a photo of the engine compartment that shows the fuel pump connections and the filter. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-29-2021 @ 8:49 AM |
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Second filter lower right is static air vent on vacuum actuator for Columbia OD.
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-29-2021 @ 8:53 AM |
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What sorta looks like a copper line at bottom of second filter is actually the fuel line just behind filter. Hope that makes sense.
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-29-2021 @ 9:02 AM |
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Yesterday's replacement of filter and two short sections of rubber hose made no improvement. I cut open the removed paper filter and found nothing. I cleaned out the fuel bowl a month ago and there was a very small amount of very fine black dust in the bottom.
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-29-2021 @ 10:20 AM |
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-Warm engine at idle- steady blue arc 1/2" + -Ran 4 minutes at RPM simulating 30MPH road speed in high gear yielded steady run, no skip, stumble, or miss. Warm engine, cyl head temp 188F. fuel in bowl steady, no bubbles-same with filter. -After run, re-check spark at idle- steady blue arc 1/2 + - After run, engine accepted acceleration from idle with minimal hesitation. Ambient: temp 80F, humidity 74%, elevation 1,800.
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-29-2021 @ 4:30 PM |
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Warmed up the engine. Test drove about 5 miles, no problems. Continued on down the mountain and began to feel a bit of the stumble, then full stumble. Turned around and headed home. At the point at which I have experienced the stumble/stutter previously, I added about 1/4 +/- choke, 1/2 mile up an avg. 4% grade and drove back to the cabin with no stumble/stutter. Ck'd the vented cap: all good there. Tomorrow, I plan to apply about 2-3 lb. air pressure, blowing from the pump connection back to the tank. Shall see what that yields. I'm not sure if I have copper or rubber most of the way back to the tank. Copper runs from the engine compartment down to the frame rail. I think somewhere about there it changes to rubber. I'm pretty sure it's received a new or cleaned tank in its' recent past. I'll be checking the records to clarify that.
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| TomO | -- 08-30-2021 @ 8:49 AM |
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The line from the tank should be a steel line that is copper coated to prevent rust. Rubber lines can collapse under vacuum and reduce the fuel flow. Copper lines can work harden and crack. The line from the steel line to the fuel pump should be an Ethanol resistant flexible line with crimped on connections. These are available from https://thirdgenauto.com/ I don't know where to get the proper line any more. I used to suggest Roy Nacewicz, but he is deceased. The last line that I purchased from Macs, started rusting before I installed it. Try sending a private message to Ford38v8. He posted a source on here several years ago. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-30-2021 @ 11:10 AM |
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I checked the line from the firewall to tank.. What I thought was rubber fuel line inside the frame rail was actually two vacuum lines running to the Columbia OD unit. Behind it was a copper coated steel (confirmed with magnet) fuel line. Getting under the Merc is a challenge at my home (a cabin in the woods). Getting back out from under even a greater challenge. I have ordered the correct rubber fuel line with crimped fittings Third Gen. It is 10" long and I'm not sure it will fit (length wise); it will be close so we shall see. Other than being "correct", what it the advantage of "crimped" fittings? I would assume they would be less prone to leaking. I assume one end has a swivel fitting? Should I be applying anything on the threads of fuel line connections? I never have and assume the answer is a resounding no. I have considered eliminating the paper fuel filter just to eliminate a restriction. The old filter was cut open and not a spec of anything found. There was the strong smell of gasoline. I followed your counsel re searching "fuel delivery" in the forums and spent and hour or more reading. I learned a lot. I continue to be in your debt for the time you are giving this new flathead traveler.
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-31-2021 @ 8:11 AM |
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Took Merc for a 17 mile test drive, mixed terrain of steep, mild, flat, speed between 20-50 and it did the same stumble/stutter with mild acceleration but didn't matter if on flat or uphill. Could influence some with application of 1/4 choke but would then flood and improve when choke removed. Upon arrival home, shut down. Then thought I'd ck spark with engine at high end of normal temp range. It wouldn't turn over. Tried at solenoid, same thing. Would engage, move fan a few degrees but not turn over. Ck'd batt voltage: 5.2V. It did this stunt once before right after the stumble/stutter business began a month ago. It has a new Optima red top and takes a charge from charger fine. Just dammit.
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| TomO | -- 08-31-2021 @ 5:46 PM |
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I would eliminate all filters. The screen in the sediment bowl does a good job of removing the larger pieces of debris. If your tank is clean and the fuel line is not rusted internally, there should be very little debris in the fuel. Carbureted engines can stand a lot more debris than the fuel injected ones common today. If the engine turns over after cooling down. I would suggest that your starter be checked out. This means crawling under the car again to remove the starter. The reason for using the stock type hose is that the spring clamps may allow a vacuum leak causing the pump to be inefficient. I don't use or recommend using any thing on the fuel lines. The compression fittings seal very good. Your last test where you got "some stumble" on flat or hills accelerating from 20MPH sound like your carburetor needs service. Do you have to crank the engine for long periods before it starts, when you let the car sit for a couple of days? When you try to accelerate the accelerator pump squirts fuel into the venturi and the power valve opens under the low vacuum conditions to increase the flow of fuel. The low vacuum also causes the distributor vacuum brake to activate keeping the spark slightly retarded for more power. If any of those parts malfunction, you would notice a lag in acceleration. You can check the accelerator pump by looking down the throat of the carburetor and operating the accelerator. You should see 2 jets of fuel. You can check the vacuum brake by removing the 1 1/16" plug on the left (drivers) side of the distributor. There should be a washer on the inside attached to the adjustment screw that presses on the spring. Use your finger to remove the spring and plunger. There should be a leather pad on the plunger that presses against the advance wheel. If either of these is missing, they must be replaced. Tighten the plug to prevent vacuum leaks. The power valve can only be checked by removing the carburetor and disassembling it to remove the power valve. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-05-2021 @ 7:36 AM |
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Thanks again for your patient counsel. Gonna make this short and sweet. When the Merc wouldn't crank, b2attery ck'd 5.2V. Put on charger. Meanwhile, studied youTube videos on generators, charging and voltage regulator/control boxes. Found the Moss Motors videos most instructive (my original classic car passion is Triumph TR3s. I was looking for one when I found the '39 Merc and was hooked). Cut out wasn't working. Took generator and regulator to and old school battery and ignition shop 20 miles away recommended by a buddy who has rebuilt vintage wooden boats for a living for 40 years. He took me into the shop and tested all explaining step by step what was going on. WOW! What an experience. Generator good. Voltage regulator was super hinky, voltage all over the place. He set up new regulator and I installed generator and new regulator. Showing 7.7 volts at battery at 1000 rpm. Test drove 4 miles and tested-test drove 30 miles and tested. All good. It did a tiny cough a time or two accelerating up grade. I may be hyper sensitive. Hot air heater blower motor is now working. Never put the two issues together. I guess the Merc doesn't like anything much below 6 volts. Subsequent cks at battery have shown as high as 8.5 volts at 1000 rpm. Not sure that's o.k.. I'll drive the merc to his shop next week and let him ck it. I am a stranger in a strange land. But, I'm loving the learning process.
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| TomO | -- 09-05-2021 @ 8:24 AM |
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8.5V charging should send the needle on the BATT gauge past the "N" block. It is too high for your generator and your battery. Make sure that your generator and regulator are both well grounded. Clean all paint from the front of the intakes generator mounting surface and the back of the generator mount. Use a toothed washer under one of the regulator mounting bolts and make sure that your ground straps are in good condition. You can connect a jumper wire from the generator case to a mounting bolt of the regulator when you read the 8.5V to see if it brings the charging voltage below 7.5V. The optimal range is 7.2V-7.5V when the regulator and engine are at operating temperatures. The voltage will be slightly higher at cooler regulator temps. Checks should be made with an analog meter after the car has been driven at least 5 minutes. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-11-2021 @ 2:56 PM |
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Again Tom, thank you for your patient counsel. I fried the regulator cause it wasn’t grounded. New regulator in hand and will go on when I return from Savannah next week. I’m learning, albeit the hard way. On a lighter note, I need a robe rail complete with hardware. Got a lead? This is the only thing missing on the Mercury. Even have the tools with original pouch. Stay well. Doug
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-11-2021 @ 3:00 PM |
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Oh, any knowledge about this particular rebuild (presumably) tag?
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