| 39Fordfan | -- 04-20-2021 @ 4:40 PM |
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Hello there, I have a '39 Deluxe I'm just about to get out of moth balls soon. A couple of years ago I had my water pumps re-manned with high flow impellers. It did help with my car's issue of running hot with just a bit of idling on a hot day. Later that year I bit the bullet and had the radiator re-cored and that was the answer to my car's overheating issues. It had been running so well for a couple of years, when one evening as I was coming home from a car show I could hear this sickening grinding noise from under the hood. I was almost home and was only going about 5MPH. I shut it down immediately and opened up the hood. A water belt pulley fell off of the pump shaft, sending the fan-belt into the running fan, folding the fan forward and literally shredded my radiator. I will say unequivocally that I did not over tighten that belt. That pulley just fell off of it's water pump shaft after a couple of years of service with no help from me. Long story short, I took my radiator out and was able to get it re-cored at the same shop that did it in the first place. The water pump vendor felt so bad that he paid me to have the radiator re-cored again and he threw in a set of newly re-manned pumps. This had never happened to them before. I was really impressed with his response. The bad parts of the whole deal is that after I put it all back together again the car runs fine, but it doesn't run as well as it was running. I'm not sure if some of the electrical components got soaked with coolant and copper and brass filings from the radiator? Everything in the engine compartment got soaked with coolant and metal filings. But the main problem now is I can't seem to keep coolant in the system, and it's using oil at a rapid pace compared to it's historic amount of oil consumption. Luckily, I have not seen any evidence of oil and coolant mixing together, but it has me worried. I was using a 4 lb valve at the bottom of my overflow tube to keep coolant in the system but no matter what I would try, the upper hoses would just blow off at the heads. So I took the overflow valve off and I sent it in to see if it was functioning properly. It needed cleaning but they sent it back for me saying it was fine to put it back on. Problem 1; Why is the coolant just pouring out of the overflow even at 155 degrees? Is there a baffle or something the radiator shop forgot to put back in when they re-cored it? Problem 2; Do you think I've got a blown head gasket? Problem 3; Is is possible this 2nd set of water pumps are so high flowing they are pushing coolant around so vigorously that my system can't take it? As in coolant spouting out of the overflow at low temperatures, or hoses blowing off, or possible blown head gaskets? Can you also steer me into some tests I can perform to determine for sure if I need new head gaskets? What are your thoughts and what would you do or where would you go from here? Thanks!
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| Barney | -- 04-20-2021 @ 5:19 PM |
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Hi I feel badly you're going through this headache. That's a lot of pressure that will cause the hoses to blow off! I'm guessing compression pressure could be entering the system. A typical test I utilize to determine head gasket integrity is to check the compression of each cylinder. If you find any two adjacent cylinders unusually low, the gasket has probably failed at that narrow section between the cylinders. This typically occurs when an engine has been over-heated. If you remove the head, I would have it checked for flatness and for cracks. Keep us posted. Barney
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| 40 Coupe | -- 04-21-2021 @ 4:41 AM |
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Ford did not use a pressure cap on their radiators pre war. It is my feeling they are not a good idea, they can cause the top tank of the radiator to bulge and distort, over time, even at 3#. If your running 155 degrees, which is too cool, there is definitely no need for the pressure cap. The leaking coolant may have gotten into your distributor causing poor performance, especially if you have the original distributor installed. Yes the original radiator does have a baffle under the overflow tube and inside the radiator. You should be able to see it hanging down from the center of the radiator from the fill cap. The radiator should not be filled to the fill cap only just above the radiator core. excess coolant will come out the overflow. It does seem you have additional problems if the coolant hoses are blowing off. by the time they blow off the pressure relief should be open. I would do a compression check. as suggested above. and make sure the overflow tube is not blocked.
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| JayChicago | -- 04-21-2021 @ 8:31 AM |
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"Problem 1; Why is the coolant just pouring out of the overflow even at 155 degrees?" I suspect this problem is due to over-filling the radiator. Need to leave room for expansion in the expansion tank above the core.
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-21-2021 @ 11:13 AM |
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Hey Barney, Thank-you so much for your reply! I really appreciate your empathy. Since the water pump pulley fell off, it feels like I've become a full time mechanic in order to enjoy this car. I haven't ever performed a compression test on this car - that's a great idea. It's always run so well with great pull from the engine, that I've never thought to bother about a compression test on it. I'll do one as soon as I can get it out of mothballs and report back here. Thanks again!
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-21-2021 @ 11:49 AM |
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Hi 40 Coupe, Thanks so much for your thoughts! You've helped me with some distinctions to look for once I get the car out from it's winter slumber. I honestly have never noticed the baffle inside of the radiator, I will be looking for it when I get the car back. If the radiator shop forgot to put the baffle in, do you think there is a way to retrofit one in there? Or do I need to pull the radiator again and have them open up the radiator to get it done? I haven't experienced any problems before this with the pressure in the system. But you make a good point and I will see what I can do in the future to keep coolant in the system the way Henry intended. The guy who Re-manned the pumps said in order to get the best coolant flow, that you need to take the thermostats out. Maybe put a small cardboard cover over the radiator during cooler weather and let your system flow. That's why it runs at about 160 degrees most of the time. Without the thermostats, it will still run hot (205 plus degrees, but won't go past the boiling point) on a 85 degree or hotter day if you are in traffic or a parade. These are his perspectives, not mine. He's got a degree in Thermodynamics, so what do I know? The amount of coolant definitely goes below the fins in the radiator when I took the pressure valve off the bottom of the overflow tube. I put a plastic bottle at the end of the overflow tube to catch the excess coolant flowing out. It worked for awhile, but on my last run to the storage place on a warm day last Fall my coolant reservoir overflowed too.
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| MGG | -- 04-21-2021 @ 11:55 AM |
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NAPA sells a head gasket leak detector kit. $43.99
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-21-2021 @ 11:55 AM |
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Hi JayChicago, I was thinking along your lines of thought too. But without the pressure valve on the bottom of the overflow tube, the amount of coolant definitely goes below the fins in the radiator to a point where I can't see it anymore - if left to it's own devices. I wound up putting a plastic bottle at the end of the overflow tube to catch the excess coolant flowing out. It worked for awhile, but on my last run to the storage place on a warm day last Fall my coolant reservoir overflowed too.
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-21-2021 @ 12:00 PM |
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Hi MGG, Really? That's a good stuff! I'll make sure to grab one of those kits from NAPA before I go and get my car. Thanks!
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-21-2021 @ 12:16 PM |
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I would think that a heavy duty fan made from thick metal in the 30's would easily be the victor in this battle and would've chopped that fan belt to bits. Instead the fan belt won the battle and destroyed the fan, which then bent forward and shredded my newly re-cored radiator. If I had wanted to, I could've reused that belt. This message was edited by 39Fordfan on 4-22-21 @ 6:13 AM
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-21-2021 @ 9:48 PM |
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39fordfan, not about your question, but a comment and advice regarding the broken pulley damage: First, don't even think about straightening the fan for reuse, it's toast, will never spin true, and eventually will crack and break off a blade to cause further damage. Next piece of wisdom is about the incident itself: Your full coverage insurance will cover the damage caused by the broken pulley, but not the pulley itself. I know, your pump rebuilder paid for the damage (lucky you), so that advice is for any future incidents such as wheelwell damage from a flat tire. And about your pump rebuilder, he did you a good turn, so how about a plug for him by name? Alan
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-22-2021 @ 6:47 AM |
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Hi Allen, Thank-you so much for your reply and your wisdom! I appreciate it. I did ask my insurance company about making a claim, but they couldn't pay it as they considered it a mechanical failure. Hopefully there isn't a next time, but I would press them harder if there was. I wondered if there were insurance companies out there that would've paid this claim? Who do you use? As I mentioned in my original post I was most impressed with the response of the water pump vendor and yes I do feel lucky about it - I didn't expect that. Aside from the newly Re-manned pumps, he had a NOS fan which I installed too! I've thought about making a wall clock or something out of the old one. He felt so bad about this happening he was more concerned about bad news travelling faster than his good reputation. I certainly have had no interest in hurting him in any way and I would've left him out of this post completely to honor his wishes. I wanted have some clarity in giving you guys a bit of background on where my car has been in order for you to make a full assessment in helping me to get it out of the problems it has now as in some ways they seem related. I asked him if I could share some of this story of his integrity online as I really wanted to give him a good plug. He declined.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-22-2021 @ 7:13 AM |
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hi sorry to hear about your problem I would try a radiator pressure tester. do not pump it up, start the engine and see if it goes up, if it does,,, replace the head gasket's is most likely the pressure problem make sure you only add coolant when warm, not cold, and take the heads to a machine shop and see if they are warped if they are have them machined, my 2 cents, 37Ragtopman
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-22-2021 @ 9:22 AM |
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Hi 37Ragtopman, Thank-you for your reply! I have never used a radiator pressure tester. I'll check into it and do the test. One thing I wasn't clear on about it was if the pressure went up that means the head gaskets are likely bad. If the pressure goes up in the radiator does that mean a leaking head gasket is adding compression pressure to the cooling system? Thanks! If I decide to take the heads off and replace the head gaskets, I'll come back here looking for advice on that job for sure. Good advice on taking the heads into a machine shop once they are off. I'm going to take it slow and be real thorough before I leap into the head gaskets. It's possible my hoses were blowing off because of a bad overflow valve over pressurizing the system, combined with original style flat screw head hose clamps that I just couldn't tighten enough. When I took the overflow valve off and put modern hose clamps on I finally got those top hoses to hold. I believe from conversations here with you guys that at the least, the radiator shop that did the re-core neglected to put the overflow baffle on back on it. Which probably means I'll have to take the radiator out again and have them put one in. It's possible that missing radiator baffle is my only problem and I could just put a band aid it on it with the cleaned up overflow tube pressure valve until I can figure it all out for sure.
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| TomO | -- 04-22-2021 @ 10:41 AM |
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Here is my opinion: The 39-41 radiator with the overflow tube at the top of the radiator does not need a baffle to prevent coolant from spurting out from the overflow. The coolant enters the radiator directly from the hoses into the expansion portion of the radiator and has about 3" of room to expand. The pressure relief valve from Skip, keeps the coolant from foaming and will not damage a good tank. It should relieve the pressure in the radiator well before the hoses blow off of the heads. If you are developing that much pressure in the cooling system, it is very likely that you have a blown head gasket or other damage to the engine that is allowing combustion pressure to enter the cooling system. I use one on my 40 along with a 4# pressure cap. There are many tests that will determine if the head gasket is blown : combustion gases in the radiator test, white smoke and a sweet smelling exhaust, coolant in the oil, compression test, cylinder leak down test and the one that I like best. Just drain the cooling system, removing the water pump belt and upper hoses, fill the block so the coolant can be seen in the heads. Then start the engine and look for coolant bubbles. If you have bubbles, pull the heads and repair the problem. Loosing a pulley can happen to anyone. It is a good idea to look at the water pump shaft extending from the pump on a regular basis. Look for signs that the pulley is rubbing on the casting, rust around the shaft, the shaft getting longer or shorter. If the pump pulley is moving in and out at idle, that is another sign that the pulley is loose. When you see any of those signs, shut off the engine and do not run it until the water pump is replaced or repaired. The pulley will move in and out when engine speed is increased. Tom
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| 39Fordfan | -- 04-22-2021 @ 12:28 PM |
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Hi Tom, Thank-you so much for sharing your opinion. I really appreciate it. I was thinking I would perform that bubble test you mentioned. I wasn't sure about that one for this car, but I will do it now that you mentioned it is the one you like the best. I'll put the newly cleaned and tested pressure relief valve back on the car to get it home or on the trailer, (based on whatever I can determine when I actually check the car.) I think it was plugged up and not working properly before. I still don't know if there was enough pressure in the system to blow hoses off, if that's enough pressure to damage head gaskets too? If not, why not? It was demonstrating no problems prior to this. In fact, it was running better than any time in the last 30 years. I agree with you that anyone can lose a pulley. You give good advice about checking them. I was a bit reluctant to post that part of it, but I thought in the interest of saving someone else these problems and trying to solve my current problem, I went ahead. While I did not check specifically for a loose pulley at the car show I had left before it fell off, I had the hood open at the car show to show off a mint and pristine flathead and there was nothing to indicate a failure was immanent 10 miles later. That said, these pumps had been recently Re-manned with literally only 1 full season of use and way less than 500 miles on them before the failure. The vendor said it had never happened to him before nor had he ever heard of it. However they are just pressed on the shafts, so I guess anything is possible. Now I know. All of that said, as I mentioned before I am not a mechanic, just a skilled parts changer. It is entirely possible that I just didn't get those hoses cinched down to the heads well enough and the pressure relief valve was dirty and plugged causing the hoses to blow off and possible blown head gaskets are just coincidental to all of this. I've made plenty of mistakes as a mechanic, and it's still possible that at this stage I don't have blown head gaskets at all. I'm going to find out soon. I'm just trying to gather enough information to come to a proper conclusion and I appreciate your help and will be asking for more soon enough I am sure. Thanks again, Tom. This message was edited by 39Fordfan on 4-22-21 @ 12:28 PM
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