Topic: Defective Fram C4 oil filter ???

Grant	-- 06-25-2010 @ 3:19 PM
	On June 22nd, bo8109b started a discussion topic called "Spark Plugs". The same day, Stroker responded with comments which included: "Given the degradation of quality, I wouldn't recommend a Champion spark plug today, even for my lawn mower. The same goes for Fram filters, which used to be the best for Fords." About a year ago, I changed the oil on an 8BA V8 engine and used a Fram C4 filter. Immediately upon firing the engine it had a low frequency, quite audible, knocking noise which had never been there before. It sounded something like a bad rod bearing. Is it possible that the Fram C4 filter was defective and did not allow oil to pass through it, thereby causing lubricant starvation ? If not, what else might be wrong with using a Fram C4 filter ? What oil filters are you fellows using on the 1949 to 1953 V8 engines ? What would you recommend rather than the Fram C4 ? Any ideas about what might be causing this previously non-existent engine noise, which wasn't there before the oil change ?
trjford8	-- 06-25-2010 @ 6:26 PM
	I've seen several posts that recommend the Wix filters.
JebNY	-- 06-25-2010 @ 6:51 PM
	Far from an expert on this but I believe all these drop in filters (assuming you haven't modified the engine oil feeds) are partial filters, they are just another feed in the system and filter what oil gets piped to them. They can be completely blocked and would not starve the engine for oil. I suppose if it fell a part and spit pieces of paper into the oil pan it would plug up the oil pump pretty quick. Jim... 1950 F1 Stake
ford38v8	-- 06-25-2010 @ 10:31 PM
	Grant, I agree with Jeb. If the oil filter were clogged for some reason, the effect would actually be more oil to your engine rather than less, as the filter runs off a tee, taking only what the engine does not. Your knock may have been due to an engine flush (when you changed your oil) that effectively allowed your oil pump to lose its prime. This can and does happen sometimes even in a modern engine. If you don't get immediate oil pressure when starting your engine, the usual cure is to simply turn off the engine for a moment, and then restart. Always watch your oil pressure when you start up, particularly after an oil change. Alan
Grant	-- 06-26-2010 @ 7:30 AM
	Thanks for your responses. The engine and its oil filter set-up are stock Ford, unaltered from new. The old filter was removed intact during the oil change. Could an old or damaged clutch disc suddenly start making a noise that sounds like a rod bearing knock ? I've heard of Wix oil filters, but haven't seen one for years. Does anyone know the Wix part number for '49 to '53 Ford V8 engines ?
supereal	-- 06-26-2010 @ 11:18 AM
	If your filter is of the vertical type, prefill the canister before starting the engine. As noted above, there is no oil pressure at start up after draining until the filter is full. If the knock goes away soon after starting, it is common. At our shop, we haven't had any problems with Fram or any other name brand. If we do, it isn't unusual to find that the old gasket wasn't removed before a new filter was installed, or the filter was cross threaded when installed. Be sure you have the correct filter, as the "drainback" valve in the unit must match the engine. Beware of counterfeit filters. There are increasing numbers out there. When in doubt, buy from a place such as NAPA.
JebNY	-- 06-26-2010 @ 3:27 PM
	WIX 51006 is the replacement for Fram C4. That is what I use in my 50 F1. I don't think these drop in filters have a drain back valve. The way they are feed they stay full of oil in operation. Filling the canister with fresh oil before putting the top on is definitely a good idea. Jim... 1950 F1 Stake
Stroker	-- 06-26-2010 @ 4:50 PM
	Most of the problems I have had with Fram oil filters have been on newer full-flow systems. My complaints are based upon 2 observations. 1) The method of retaining the built-in gasket is "iffy-enough" to allow the later spin-on filters to be removed sans gasket. 2) the internals contain cardboard pieces that are supposed to function as anti-drainback, and relief valves. I like the spin-on Wix filters, so I have assumed that everything that Fram makes is absolute Wal-Mart-price-point CRAP. As for the Champion Plugs, I used to swear by them, but have since switched to NKG's on anything I care about. I agree that you could put just about anything in a partial flow OEM Ford filter housing, including rolls of toilet paper, as if it plugs up, it will simply bypass. The real point however, is to put something "good" in that housing, so you get some benefit from it.
Grant	-- 06-27-2010 @ 7:53 AM
	Thanks again for all your input, gentlemen. As ford38V8 commented, I did shut off and re-start the engine. The knocking sound was still there. With hand-operation of the throttle, the frequency of the knock increased along with engine rpms. It certainly sounded like low oil pressure to me. Supereal recommends prefilling the oil filter canister with oil. That was not done in this case. In future, I will definitely do that. The vehicle is low mileage, but has been in storage since 1958 (still has '58 plates). The problem oil change was number four after getting the car running (total operating time approximately thirty minutes). The engine had been running beautifully on 15W40. The knocking sound commenced when I switched to Phillips 20W50. This is an aviation oil which is supposed to have much higher ZDDP content because aircraft are not subject to EPA regulations which govern the operation of motor vehicles. Using this airplane 20W50 seemed like a good idea at the time. I have recently spoken to an engineer at Conoco Phillips in Texas. He didn't seem to know much about early Ford engines and basically said "no comment" . The situation has irritated me so much that the engine is now out and on the garage floor, partially disassembled. The rod bearings showed very little wear and appear to be undamaged. They are original STD FoMoCo. New STD Clevite rod bearings have been installed. The main bearings are also STD FoMoCo, in excellent condition. Rather than disturb the upper halves and possibly cause damage, the main caps were re-installed with the original bearings in place (mains torqued to 100; rods torqued to 50). Further observations are: 1. very little sludge in the bottom of the oil pan 2. oil pickup screen 6623 in very nice condition with almost no grunge in it. 3. screen cover and inlet tube assembly 6615 were completely clear with no blockage of any kind. 4. oil pump seems to be fine with 6608 and 6610 gears dripping with oil and no signs of damage. I will be removing the 6672 plug next to see if the 6654 spring is damaged or broken. While the oil pump is apart, do you think that the 6654 spring should be replaced? If so, where do I get one that is genuine N.O.S. FoMoCo ? What else can I be checking while the engine is on the floor ? Cylinder walls look good, and compression is strong. I do not want to re-install this engine until the source of the knocking problem has been identified and corrected. Perhaps the oil filter cansister not being pre-filled with oil, and having a dry Fram C4 filter at start-up, was what I did wrong ??? With respect to the clutch, are the Denn** Carpent** replacement discs high quality, trustworthy units ? It seems to me that the original clutch disc, which does show some wear, might as well be changed before engine re-installation. Do you fellows agree with that ?
supereal	-- 06-27-2010 @ 10:23 AM
	An engine knock that doesn't go away when oil pressure goes up may originate from a source other than the main or rod bearings. It is often piston "slap" when the pistons were not carefully matched to the bore. Now that you have the engine apart, have both the pistons and cylinder walls measured, and inspect the wrist pins for fit. Check all bearings, rods and mains, with PlastiGage to be sure all are correct. We grind cranks in our shop, and it is not unusual to find a journal that was turned undersize for some reason, and then a stock insert put in, instead of an oversize. As for the oil pump, if you have any reason to doubt yours, replace it. New 80# pumps are about $160. Check your old pump to be sure that the pickup tube is secure. We braze the pickup, just to be sure. Unless your clutch disk shows signs of excess wear or burning, it should be OK. Many replacements are not of good quality.
Pauls39	-- 06-27-2010 @ 2:01 PM
	There are a lot of causes for engine knocks on flatheads. Check the cam gear for wear, excess clearance on the gear teeth will make a racket as the teeth bang back and forth against the crank gear. We had one with a plugged vacuum line going to the double action fuel pump. When the wipers were turned on the pump rod bounced around making noise like the crank was getting ready to exit the pan. Personally I would use an automotive oil like Valvoline racing or Pennzoil racing, if you are worried about the lack of ZZDP.
Grant	-- 06-28-2010 @ 11:37 AM
	Again, thank you all for your responses. To Supereal: I don't have the heads off yet and the pistons aren't out of the engine. Someone will have to assist with the wrist pin inspections and measurements which you're talking about......I haven't any idea how to do that sort of work, and it hadn't occurred to me that such things would be necessary. My experience using PlastiGage is zero. Perhaps I can find a competent individual locally to assist in that regard as you have recommended. What clearances would I be looking for ? The vehicle has less than 12,000 miles on it, and appears to have never been touched under the hood other than dual points and a big fat aftermarket coil having been installed (the coil has been replaced with a stock one; dual points and the external condenser are still there). Maybe the crankshaft, main bearings and rod bearings had been taken out and serviced at some time between March 1950 and fall 1958, but I don't think so. To Pauls39: The camshaft and camshaft gears have not yet been checked. If the oil pump turns out to be okay, and the PlastiGage investigation shows no irregularities, a camshaft inspection would undoubtedly be worthwhile. The vacuum line between the carb and this car's single action fuel pump did not appear to be malfunctioning. Having said that, I didn't attempt to operate the wipers. If and when the engine gets re-installed and runs with the knocking problem gone, I will make sure that the vacuum line works properly. As far as engine oil is concerned, would you use 15W40 or 20W50?
TomO	-- 06-28-2010 @ 12:06 PM
	It is always better to try to isolate the source of the sound before dis-assembly. Another cause for a knocking sound is a broken piston. The broken half will follow the half attached to the connecting rod at starter speed or slower, so unless you know which cylinder was making the sound, you will have to try to isolate a broken piston by tapping on the top of each piston and listen for a sound difference. Tom
Grant	-- 06-28-2010 @ 3:16 PM
	Thanks, Tom O, for reading all of this topic and providing your opinion. I've seen you answer dozens of Forum questions and am pleased to consider your thoughts on a very frustrating and discouraging situation. Right now the engine is on the garage floor upside down with the oil pan off. I can easily see the rods, the bottoms of the pistons, and a large portion of the cylinder walls. The spark plugs are out, so it's pretty easy to turn over the engine and watch the moving parts. Is there any way to check for a broken piston with the engine in this position and current state of disassembly ? Do you think it is possible that doing an oil change during which the dimwitted owner failed to pre-fill the oil filter and oil filter canister could have generated a knocking noise which sounded an awful lot like a bad rod bearing ? Whatever it is that's going on with this 239 8BA V8, the knocking sound was definitely not there in any way before the oil change. The engine ran smoothly and quietly with over 30 pounds of oil pressure at idle. When driven out of and back into the garage, there were no unusual sounds. Also, the clutch seemed to work very well. Overall the car was a happy old '50 Ford until start-up with the fresh Phillips 20W50 aviation oil.
supereal	-- 06-28-2010 @ 4:12 PM
	Grant: The checks that I mentioned are best left to an experienced shop. PlastiGage is a thin plastic strip about the size of the lead in a pencil. A strip is cut the width of the bearing, and placed in the cap. The cap is tightened to spec,about 40 ft lbs, for rods, 75-80 for mains, then opened, and the width of the strip is compared with the scale on the package. The rod clearance to the crank pin is .0003 to .0009, no more than .0015. Main bearing clearance is .000 to .003, no more than .005. Any bearing sh*ll that is making noise usually shows signs on the surface. The amount of mileage necessary to produce problems is almost always due to the diligence used in putting it together. Many shops just don't know much about our flatheads, or any other old engine. Many are assembled without regard to proper clearances, many of which are much wider than modern engines and suffer if too tight. Now that you have the engine out and partially disassembled, an experienced shop should be able to determine the cause of your noise quickly.
Pauls39	-- 06-28-2010 @ 7:43 PM
	Grant, as Tom O stated, it would have been best to isolate the noise before your tore things down, How ever you are beyond that now. Is it still together enough to run a compression check? That may isolate a broken piston or valve. Could something been dropped in the carburator? A small bolt or screw prehaps? I would suspect something let loose in the oiling system when you did the oil change,or the aircraft oil may not be compatable with a water cooled engine in some way. Personnal choice is 20-50 valvoline racing oil, though a straight 30 weight works fine also. Everone will have their opinion on this, so lets just say use a good quality automotive oil. You say you have a dual point distributor, is this after market? A stock 8BA would have single points. Also if you have a single action fuel pump it won't have a vacuum line hooked to it at all. Let us know what you find. Best of luck.
TomO	-- 06-29-2010 @ 6:46 AM
	A rough check for a broken piston is to ring each piston to the bottom of the stroke and tap the head of the piston from the bottom of the engine. Use a long thin tool to reach the head of the piston and then push on the tool to see if the head of the piston will move. A broken piston makes a much louder knock than a rod bearing knock as it is caused by the piston hitting the head. Tom
Grant	-- 06-30-2010 @ 1:54 PM
	My sincere thanks, again, to everyone who is trying to help out here. Supereal: You're absolutely right. Somebody like me should never be checking tolerances as crucial as bearings in an engine. Unfortunately there are no shops in this area which are competent in flathead Ford V8s. The only trustworthy "local" outfit would be Yesteryear Ford across the border in Mason Michigan which is about a six or seven hour return trip from here (I'm in Canada). This engine may well end up there, if Dave is interested in taking on the job. Tom O.: The piston test you're suggesting should be easy to accomplish. I'll let you know what I find. Pauls39: I have purchased a screw-in compression guage. Over the upcoming holiday weekend there should be time to test the cylinders. The results will be posted here on the Forum. Of course, the single action fuel pump on this '50 coupe does not have a vacuum line connection. I guess I was thinking about the vacuum advance line which runs between the carb and the distributor. Sorry about the unnecessary confusion on that point. The distributor is a stock Ford unit with an aftermarket dual point conversion plate mounted in it (Sorenson, maybe ?). I've installed two new sets of points and a new condenser. The second set of points start opening before the first set closes. My guess is that this provides a longer spark duration than a stock set-up. It seems to work very well.
Pauls39	-- 06-30-2010 @ 8:06 PM
	If dave is too busy ask him to call the guys in RG126, Dave is a member. We are right down the road in the Jackson Michigan area. Ask for Jeff or Paul or look us up on the web site. We have an excellent machinist and plenty of experience with rebuilding flatheads.
Grant	-- 07-01-2010 @ 6:40 AM
	Thank you, Pauls39. I would definitely like to have an opportunity to meet you fellows. How do I go about looking you up on the web site ?
Pauls39	-- 07-02-2010 @ 7:39 PM
	Grant, Go to the home page, look up "links"- US regional groups, go to Southern Michigan. We would be gald to see you, give us a call.
Grant	-- 07-06-2010 @ 2:00 AM
	Thanks for the invitation, Paul. I'll make a point of looking you up next time I'm headed across the border into Michigan.
Grant	-- 07-11-2010 @ 9:41 AM
	Good afternoon, fellow EFV8 members. Holidays are over and I'm working once again on the '50 coupe from he**. Updates are as follows: OIL PUMP The 6672 plug has been removed. The 6654 spring inside is intact, shiny and very strong. In fact, the spring is so strong that it's difficult to compress it while turning the plug back in. CLUTCH DISC It is my intention to carefully scuff the original clutch disc, and the surface of the pressure plate, with 80 grit sandpaper before re-installation rather than using a modern replacement disc which may not be of good quality. Does anyone object to that ? PISTON CHECK In the manner which Tom O recommended, I have checked each piston. All of them sound the same when tapped. There is no apparent damage to the pistons when viewed from the bottom. COMPRESSION Using a brand new screw-in compression guage, I have turned over the engine with a Johnson bar and a 7/8" socket on the crankshaft pulley retaining bolt. The highest reading on the guage is 10 pounds. That can't be right. Are these low compression readings occurring because I'm not able to turn the engine over fast enough by hand ? STARTER Is it possible that the dung-dung-dung noise is being caused by a starter malfunction rather than an internal engine component ? Could there have been a sudden starter failure at the same time as the oil change that has prevented the starter drive gear from fully disengaging ? Inspection of the starter and the flywheel ring gear show no obvious chewed-up metal, damage or breakage. There are no chipped teeth, the big spring is very strong, and in general the starter parts look clean and shiny......but the starter has not been disassembled. The factory Ford shop manual suggests bench testing. It looks to me that washers and nuts will have to be tightly installed first on the ends of the long starter mounting bolts. Is that correct ? Otherwise, there would be nothing to hold the end plate in place. I don't want to damage a perfectly good starter. What sort of malfunction might occur or be obvious when the starter is bench tested ?
supereal	-- 07-11-2010 @ 11:01 AM
	Grant: It is a good idea to replace an oil pump when rebuilding an engine. The 80# 8BA pump works fine as long as you use the 8RT pickup tube if your block is a 59AB, otherwise your '50 pump will just bolt in. The pressure plate should be resurfaced at a machine shop, or at least cleaned thoroughly with a Scotchbrite wheel in a drill. Always use a new, quality disk and a new pilot bearing, particularly if you now have the solid bronze bushing. The only way to check piston condition is to remove them from the block. The bore should be measured, and the pistons checked with a micrometer. If they are serviceable, new rings should be installed with the correct end gap confirmed. You must turn the engine over with the starter to check compression, unless you are using a "blow down" rig that uses compressed air. Your 10 lbs is meaningless. I can't place a "dung dung" noise that would be starter connected, particularly if the ring gear is OK. "Bench testing" a starter isn't necessary if you don't have the equipment to test current draw, etc. Keep the end plate in place, or the armature will slip out of the brushes, and create a whole new set of problems for you. If you have the starter on the bench, you can run it with a battery, but it won't tell you anything except it will run, and whether the shaft is bent. There is nothing wrong with disassembling the engine yourself. That is how most of us learned. Just be careful to get experienced help when doing critical measurements. The cost of having a good machine shop examine your engine is usually modest when the engine is stripped of the heads and pan before it is brought in. Otherwise, you run the risk of irreversible damage if you miss something.
Pauls39	-- 07-11-2010 @ 10:00 PM
	Grant, you will need to turn the engine with the starter to check compression. Does the noise happen when you crank it with the starter, or just when the engine is running? Have you checked the cam gear tooth clearance with a feeler gage? Are any of the horse shoe retainer clips missing from the valve springs? Are any of the spark plug tips broken/bent or closed? This may indicate trash in the cyl.
MSEIDVALVE	-- 07-13-2010 @ 7:02 AM
	G`day Grant, a friend of mine had a very similiar issue with his 8BA in a 53 Customline about 5 years ago. He had not changed the oil but had only switched off the engine and restarted it the next day only to hear a knocking noise. Oil pressure was good also. Took a while to find the problem but it was part of a broken fibre tooth from the camshaft gear which had become wedged between 2 other teeth and as it meshed with the crank gear made a knocking noise. Mark.
deuce_roadster	-- 07-13-2010 @ 8:15 AM
	Something tiny like a screw that holds the butterflys on the carb shaft can get loose and sucked into a cylinder and make the sounds you are describing--don't ask how I learned this. Since you have the engine out and half apart you might as well take off the heads and take a look. Since this occurred after some sevice work it isn't impossible something got down the throat of the carb.
Grant	-- 07-13-2010 @ 8:37 AM
	Here we go again ........ Supereal : I promise that when this 8BA engine goes back together, it will have a new oil pump and clutch disc. Are there manufacturers or brands which you prefer to use ? Or avoid ? With respect to the starter, it had been my intention to try to determine if the starter drive was moving in and out properly. Unless you instruct me not to do that, I'm going to test it after securing the end plate. I haven't given up yet on this investigation, but if necessary the engine will definitely go to a competent machine shop......maybe an obvious problem can be identified here which could be the source of the offensive noise. Learning about these flatheads is always interesting. On a positive note, having the engine out means that it can be thoroughly cleaned and repainted in the correct Ford of Canada pebble beige enamel before re-installation. Pauls39 As previously stated, this '50 engine had been running very well. It always started in one second or less when the button was pushed. The dung-dung-dung noise occurred only when the engine was running, immediately after the fourth oil change. Possibly the noise might also have been present if I had experimented by pressing the starter button with the ignition key in the "off" position, but that was not done in this case. In Part Five Chapter III Specifications of the 1949/1950/1951 shop manual, the 6256 Camshaft Gear back lash is shown on page 311 as 0.0002 to 0.0003 . I'll check that and let you know what I find. In your June 27th post, you mentioned the cam gear and also the fuel pump push rod. That push rod seems to be fine. If there was sudden push-rod-related damage, what would the lucky owner be looking for ? Since the engine is currently upside down on the garage floor, I can't look at the valve retainer clips immediately. As soon as possible they will be checked and the results reported here on Forum. The spark plugs are in excellent condition, although there are black sooty deposits.....probably due to MMO in the gas tank. These are brand new Champion RH10Cs which have about 30 minutes running time on them. They had been installed to replace the filthy old H10s which may have been the original plugs. M SEIDVALVE Very interesting. Thanks for your input. Looking at the camshaft gear and the crankshaft gear will be next on the list of things to do. Stand by for the results of that inspection.
Pauls39	-- 07-15-2010 @ 5:05 PM
	Grant, I'm still betting you will find some problem with the cam gear, either wear or a broken tooth. Check the fuel pump push rod for straightness and look for mushroomed ends. Another good possibility is the fuel pump itself broke. Check it by hand for smooth opetation. Be sure the cup that engages the push rod is intact, and the internal linkage is not broken.
supereal	-- 07-16-2010 @ 6:49 AM
	Grant: The starter drive usually isn't a cause of problems unless it was become covered with oil and dirt. It is in a place where any oil escaping from the rear main seal can be thrown onto the drive. The starter drive must be kept clean and dry. Many are tempted to lube the drive, but that only accelerates problems. If the ring gear teeth are not damaged, and the drive spring ("Bendix") is in good condition with properly secured special bolts, it should be troublefree.
Grant	-- 07-17-2010 @ 7:11 AM
	UPDATE: The starter was bench tested yesterday. It works fine, and is a nice clean unit in what appears to be excellent condition. On the number 4 intake valve, the horseshoe-shaped retainer moves back and forth freely. However, it cannot be pulled out by hand (I tried). The others are in place quite tightly. Why is this one loose ? Have I got one weak or sloppy valve spring ? Next week I am going to have an experienced old-timer visit to assist with further disassembly of the engine. If the camshaft gear and crankshaft gear look okay, then the heads will come off.
supereal	-- 07-17-2010 @ 9:11 AM
	You likely have either a weak valve spring, or one that is broken. Sometimes it is hard to spot a broken spring, and it will require removal to check. Also, be sure to check the keeper on the lower end of the valve to be sure it isn't bent or broken. It is best to install all new valve springs when you put the engine back together. Old valve springs fail, both from fatigue and the loss of the protective coating that prevents erosion of the steel. It is also possible that the valve seat has come loose. We see that occasionally.
Grant	-- 07-18-2010 @ 8:00 AM
	FUEL PUMP & PUSH ROD This morning I located the box in which the fuel pump and fuel pump push rod were stored. The push rod is a beauty with obviously very little use, as compared to other flathead V8 fuel pump push rods which I've seen over the years. It's dead straight with no cupping, mushrooming or significant wear at either end. The fuel pump is brand new, obtained for us by Canadian Tire through NAPA. Hand operation indicates that it seems to be working properly. If necessary the tests shown in Chapter III Section 7 of the 49/50/51 Ford shop manual will be performed. NEXT WEEK When the engine gets flipped over again onto its oil pan, I'll check the camshaft eccentric with a bright light.
supereal	-- 07-18-2010 @ 9:48 AM
	Having a problem with the fuel pump pushrod or the cam lobe upon which it rides, is unusual. The area is bathed in oil and, unless the engine is run low on oil, or the pushrod bushing is defective and allows oil pressure to decline, I wouldn't expect trouble there.
Grant	-- 11-09-2010 @ 4:58 PM
	TRUE CONFESSIONS FROM THE TENTH CONCESSION What follows is an update on a long-dormant Forum topic: By mid-July, I was so disillusioned by this low-mileage '50 coupe Rouge project that other vehicles here which ran well and were reliable got driven in the interest of summer fun. The '50 engine remained on the floor under a plastic cover which had been taped in place. One day in September, I had become somewhat interested in the coupe again and was turning the engine over by hand when it became obvious that the #2 exhaust valve was sticking in a wide open position. After removing the head and taking apart that valve assembly, the spring was so weak that it could be compressed between thumb and forefinger. Shopping on Ebay produced no new old stock genuine 1950 Ford valve springs. However I did locate a box of 14 new jobber valve springs, still in the box, which were obviously quite old. Based on the likelihood that these springs were probably better (or much better) than the currently-available Chinese reproductions, four new exhaust valve springs were installed while the right cylinder head was off. Many of the recommended procedures provided here on the Forum were not followed, simply because I'm not capable of doing them. As Supereal commented, stuff like that is "better left to an experienced shop". Do we have a happy ending here ? Maybe. For the last ten days, after re-installing the engine, the '50 coupe is running very well. Our dung-dung-dung noise is gone, it starts immediately as long as the choke is pulled out, oil presure is back to 35/40 pounds at idle, and the car drives in and out of the garage with no difficulty at all. As an added bonus, both the engine and the engine compartment are now very clean and freshly painted in correct colors, much prettier than before. There likely are several lessons to be learned here: 1. always, always, do a compression check before deciding that necessary repair work includes removing the engine 2. there was in all likelihood nothing wrong with our Fram C4 oil filter 3. asking questions on this Forum is always helpful 4. never give up. I remain sincerely grateful for the assistance of everyone who was kind enough to submit their suggestions here. Regards, Grant
Old Henry	-- 11-09-2010 @ 9:09 PM
	Congratulations Grant! You have patiently waded through much trial and tribulation and come out the conquerer. One other lesson I have learned about noises that you may have also learned: You can often pinpoint the location and, thereby, the cause of a noise by pressing one end of a long metal rod to your ear while touching various points on the engine with the other end while it's running. It's amazing and fascinating what you can hear inside the engine with this crude stethoscope. There are even less crude engine stethoscopes commercially made for just this purpose. (Here's one for $2.90: http://www.amazon.com/MECHANICS-STETHOSCOPE-ENGINE-DIAGNOSTIC-AUTO/dp/B002A1IQ58 and others at that location for more.) As I believe you did conclude at one point in your venture - it is much better to find the location and cause of a noise before you tear into the engine than it is to try to figure it out after it's all apart. Still Old Henry This message was edited by Old Henry on 11-9-10 @ 10:42 PM
Pauls39	-- 11-10-2010 @ 5:47 AM
	Grant, Glad you located the problem and were able to post back. We all learned something.I hope you enjoy your V-8 for a long time. Paul
Grant	-- 11-10-2010 @ 12:58 PM
	Thanks, Paul. Next we are doing the brakes, which might actually be finished this week. I haven't forgotten about your invitation, and do intend to look you fellows up some time when I get over to Michigan.
TomO	-- 11-11-2010 @ 7:20 AM
	Grant, I am glad that your engine is back in the car and running good. Thanks for posting your solution to the problem and the lessons that you learned. One of the things that make this hobby interesting, is learning new things and relearning old things. IMHO the reason that this forum is so good is that some of us have made so many mistakes over the years and still remember them. Tom

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