| jccorbin | -- 06-24-2010 @ 6:19 PM |
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I have a ’38 Ford Fordor Deluxe sedan 24 stud engine. This is my first experience with a Flathead V8 and I have an issue that I simply cannot figure out. I have installed the distributor many times in the past two years but apparently this time I did not get the key properly lined up. I felt little resistance when I tightened the bolts and I tightened them lightly. Everything felt normal. It always fires immediately so when it did not fire within a couple rotations I removed the distributor and noticed the cam was recessed into the block beyond the point where it would engage the distributor key. My question is how do I get it back out and what keeps it from disengaging while it is running? I figured the cam thrust was to the front but that does not seem to be the case. I have called as many folks as I can but no one has heard of this happening before. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated……Thanks……Jerry
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| 42wagon | -- 06-25-2010 @ 3:14 AM |
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Jerry I may have this backwards and someone will probably correct me but here goes. Are you using the 38 "diving helmet" type distributor or the later 42 to 48 style distributor? If you are using the later distributor there is a small disk with the keys in it that extends the camshaft. This may have fallen out when you took the distributor off the car. This is the only way I can account for what you have described. I do not believe that you can push the camshaft back into the engine. Ted
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| jccorbin | -- 06-25-2010 @ 4:15 AM |
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Thanks Ted, I am using the stock 38 distributor…..I assume it is the “diving helmet” type. I cannot find a diagram that shows the rear of the camshaft or anything that would prevent the camshaft from moving to the rear like a thrust washer/spacer or whatever. So the only thing I can figure is that cam/crank gear cut creates forward thrust that keeps the cam engaged with the distributor. But, hand turning the crank does not move the camshaft forward and the gear cut diagrams seem to indicate that camshaft thrust is to the rear unless I’m reading it incorrectly. My little 20 minute "it's not quite perfect" maneuver has now resulted in five days of frustration in 90 + degree heat and humidity. And that’s not to mention the difficulty of getting the distributor out from the bottom between the radiator, frame, and the crank pulley all the while using a motorcycle mirror and flashlight to see what’s happening. And, of course, it’s my wife’s car and she continuously reminds me that “it was running fine!!!”. Oh well………Jerry
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 06-25-2010 @ 5:43 AM |
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Its a long shot, but maybe when you installed the dist,and was not lined up,it put pressure on the camshaft gear and pressed the gear OFF the camshaft,just a little backward ,so now does not meet the offset in the Dist SHAFT,, [ THIS IS A REAL LONG SHOT,cause it takes a lot of pressure to install a gear on a camshaft, but who knows who worked on the engine in the past,wish had more info to go by, I hate the pressed on gears,had some issues with them in the past,the bolt on gears are the best to use,and easiest to use, what was FORD thinking,? on the pressed on gears? if you have to change the gears on the bolt on camshaft you just remove the timing cover and unbolt and bolt the new gear in place,and just align up the timing marks, try accessing he the dist from the bottom, if you can do this use a big mirror and a good light, if the gear has been pressed off you will have to remove the camshaft,which means removing all the valve springs and keepers, you can use cloths pins to hole the valve up , when removing the camshaft,you do not have to remove the heads,just the intake,and front timing cover,and try locating a bolt on gear camshaft. if this happened which I hope did not, just remember you are home and not on the road,cause it would have sooner or later presented to be a big problem LETS HEAR WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS, ALSO check the back of dist shaft to see if it was pressed forward,check the amount of shaft coming out of the back of dist to see maybe it was moved forward,? KEEP ON TRUCKIN 37RAGTOPMAN
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-25-2010 @ 6:18 AM |
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Look for a round adaptor that has fallen out of the area between the cam and the distributor.
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| jccorbin | -- 06-25-2010 @ 6:19 AM |
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Thanks......I had assumed the cam gear was over the cam shaft and that the slot was the end of the camshaft. If indeed the slot is part of the cam gear then this is the first scenario that makes sense. I need to take a closer look at the cam gear......Thanks again.....Jerry
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| jccorbin | -- 06-25-2010 @ 6:33 AM |
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Well......I found a "round adapter" between the crank pulley and the cover. "The simplest explanation is often the most valid”…..I hope this applies to my situation…….Thanks, Thanks, Thanks…….Jerry
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| TomO | -- 06-25-2010 @ 9:01 AM |
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Now that you have found the adapter, drill and tap it for a set screw to hold it on the back of the distributer, so you won't lose it again. Tom
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| supereal | -- 06-25-2010 @ 9:13 AM |
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More often than not, failing to line up the offset tang between the distributor and camshaft destroys the distributor when the engine is turned over, if the "ears" of the distributor haven't already broken. If the timing gear doesn't turn with the crankshaft, it is likely teeth were sheared when the camshaft was locked. The shaft can't be pushed back without damage. The front cover forms the thrust surface. The back of the shaft has a pressed on gear that drives the oil pump. If the cam is indeed pushed back. the gear cover behind the flywheel may have broken. When correctly positioned, the distributor should lie flat on the cover, and the bolts should be turned in a few rounds with the fingers before being snugged up.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 06-25-2010 @ 9:56 AM |
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Like .I said "super" it was a long shot that something got moved back, 1/16 back could cause problems. its impossible to tell not unless you are there,and see for yourself, a bad camshaft gear with worn teeth [ USUALLY has a RATTLING NOISE ] Most likley the crank gear is worn out also, replacing both is the only way to go, so the engine timing remains constant,so has no back lash, ALWAY INSPECT THE CRANK GEAR for pits and roughness, esp if it is a original one, KEEP ON TRUCKIN, 37RAGTOPMAN This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 6-26-10 @ 6:33 AM
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| jccorbin | -- 06-25-2010 @ 12:14 PM |
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It’s ALIVE ! ! ! I rotated the crank by hand with the plugs out just to make sure it was smooth with no resistance, I tightened the bolts and installed the coil, plugs, and caps and she fired up immediately. I really appreciate everyone’s help. I’ve ordered a manual from Mac’s which should help in the future. Now…….It’s on to the fuel system which is “not quite perfect” and seems to lose power when it gets hot. I suspect it’s vapor lock contributed to by the lower boiling point of the methanol laden gas we are forced to use and the fact that I do not use the electric fuel pump until the symptoms present themselves (which is probably too late)…….Thanks again…….Jerry
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-26-2010 @ 8:16 AM |
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as 42wagon mentioned in his posting the adapter is necessary only when using the later distributor on the early engine cam. If you were using the 37-41 distributor it would not be there.
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| supereal | -- 06-26-2010 @ 11:04 AM |
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Most "vapor lock" is actually the ignition coil failing when hot. If you don't have a rebuilt coil, I'd start there. As I have often mentioned, we are finding partially clogged fuel lines from the tank to the firewall, mostly rust. It is likely that the "oxygenated" modern gas is attacking the interior of the line where the copper coating on the steel has eroded over time. If you are finding the problem more frequent on hard pulls and higher speeds, but will come out of it when the electric pump is used, replace the line. I did.
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-26-2010 @ 4:05 PM |
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40 Coupe & 42 Wagon, I disagree. The 59 series block has the recessed cam that requires the adapter for the football distributor. It is also necessary to use the early timing gear cover when using this distributor. Jccorbin, to avoid losing the adapter in the future, I prefer to drill both the distributor key and the adapter keyway for a taper pin, with the distributor hole a bit larger. Tap the pin snug and cut off the excess. This allows for self centering when installed. Alan
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| jccorbin | -- 06-27-2010 @ 4:01 PM |
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When my wife first got the car a few years ago I noticed the odd configuration of the distributor so I ordered another distributor and coil for a 38 Ford and they were exactly the same so I assumed they were stock. I installed the new one but used the old caps and wires because it looked like a big hassle to reefed the wires through the two tubes. I could never get it to stop missing under load and when it got hot it would simply loose power until it would only idle. Once it cooled down it would run ok again. Since this is the first flathead V8 I’ve driven or worked on I really didn’t know what to expect but I have known may people who swear by them. So, I decided to remove the wires from the tubes and in doing so I discovered the plug wires on the right side had been arcing within the tubes presumably causing the under load miss. I ordered new wires and caps from Mac’s and installed them. This is when I apparently dropped the camshaft/distributor disk which lodged out of sight between the crank pulley and the cover. Thanks to this forum and it’s participants I have a new ignition system and it runs great with a lot of power and torque……until it gets hot. I have not yet reinstalled the spark plug wire tubes. Yesterday my wife and I took the Ford to the Farmer’s Market in town and it ran great. But on the way back it started losing power and within a half mile it would only run in first gear. I tried to get up the ¾ mile hill to home but it just would not do it. So we left it on the side of the road and walked up the hill in 95 degree heat and drenching humidity. She was not happy with me. It was a long walk. A very long walk. I took 5 gallons of Green/Stabil treated gas and returned to the Ford an hour or so later, put in the gas, and it started right up and went up the hill just fine. Maybe it was out of gas!!! The gage indicated the tank was half full and when I’ve run out of gas before its indicated ¼ full but who knows. The electric pump seems to work fine and the mechanical pump looks good (I have a new one just to try). The gas tank and lines look new but I just noticed it does not have a vented gas cap nor could I find an internal vent on the filler tube. Maybe it’s just that simple…….I hope……Thanks again for all your help……Jerry
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| deluxe40 | -- 06-27-2010 @ 5:15 PM |
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Jerry - I'm suspicious of your new coil. Is it the kind that is held to the top of the distributor with two long screws? If so, and if it hasn't been rebuilt by Skip Haney, I would not trust it. I went through a dozen of those things, some new, some rebuilt by other vendors, until I had Skip rebuild one. Most often the coils failed with the same symptoms you are are reporting. Next time you have a warm day with nothing pressing, take the car out and drive it until it starts to run poorly. Then stop and pull a plug wire off and hold it about 3/8 to 1/2 inch from a head nut. If you don't get a nice blue arc at least 3/8" long, suspect the coil. (A small orange arc isn't good enough.) If your car had been out of gas, I don't think it would have run poorly for half a mile and I don't think it would have "started right up". You would have had to grind the starter for a while to pull the fresh gas from the tank. While you were hiking home things had a chance to cool down and that is more likely what caused it to run well again. This message was edited by deluxe40 on 6-27-10 @ 5:25 PM
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| jccorbin | -- 06-27-2010 @ 6:56 PM |
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The coil does attach with two long screws as you described. That’s a good point about it starting up. I let the electric fuel pump run for about 15 seconds before starting but it did surprise me that it started so easily. Now that I think about it I can’t remember it losing power before I changed the distributor and the coil. The coil I replaced is from Industria Argentina and looks to be in good shape. The coil I replaced it with came from C&G Early Ford Parts and it is a Dennis Carpenter reproduction. I think I will reinstall the original and see what happens…….Thanks……..Jerry
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| TomO | -- 06-28-2010 @ 12:24 PM |
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Jerry, save yourself some trouble and check the spark before you replace the coil. The best time to check it is when the engine is at operating temperature. Pull a plug wire and hold it near a head nut. The spark shpuld be at least 1/4" long, blue in color and make a loud snapping sound. If you have good spark, check the color of your spark plugs to see if you have a rich condition and need to have your carburetor rebuilt. Tom
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| jccorbin | -- 06-28-2010 @ 7:08 PM |
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Thanks Tom, I tried that once years ago and received one heck-of-a shock. I have been avoiding that diagnostic approach ever since. But, I will try it with an insulated pair of pliers. I have been working on English cars for over forty years and I adjust the carbs using plug readings. I have read the plugs on this Ford every week and they have a little black around the rim with a nice tan center. The 97 is spotless and the float level looks fine, although I haven't checked it using the electric pump. I wish I had some history on this car as would really help.....But I do not. Thanks for the help......Jerry
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| TomO | -- 06-29-2010 @ 6:29 PM |
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Jerry, buy a fuse puller at an auto supply store, Harbor Freight, or your hardware store and use that to pull off a plug wire. They are made of plastic and will not conduct electricity. Tom
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