| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-24-2020 @ 12:01 PM |
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I recently bought my first antique car, a 1939 Ford Deluxe fordoor. It was not running when bought, I don't know how long it's been since it ran. I dont know what's wrong with it. I got it backfiring out of the carb and occasionally out of the exhaust, but have yet to get it to run. I bought the 39-40 Ford Engine & Chassis repair manual. In it, towards the back, is a diagram with all the wiring and firing order. When I pull the firing order up online I find one for 37-41. But it's different than the one in my book. The one in the book I was getting constant backfire on every stroke. When I set the plug wires to the firing order from the one listed online I'm getting no backfire and it still won't fire up. By the way the spark on every plug is nice strong and blue. I know the car is a 39 because of the body. The engine is 24 studs. It has a big letter A stamped on the middle of each cylinder head and Ford written down below. The only VIN number I've found so far is on the top of the bellhousing and it's a 1937 vin number. The distributor is helmet style. Any tips?
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 06-24-2020 @ 12:17 PM |
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hi TO START. take a compression test to see if it has Compression on all cylinders, 125lbs and more, you might have stuck or sticking valves from sitting, you can use a little rust buster in each cylinder and see if things get better, and use MARVEL MYSTERY OIL in the FUEL once you get it running, being you get backfiring your distributor is turning, ruling out bad timing gear, but my be someone installed them incorrectly,? does it look like engine had work done to it,like had the timing cover removed ? hope this helps 37Ragtopman can you post photos of the engine ?
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-24-2020 @ 12:38 PM |
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compression is about 55-65 on all cylinders. I looked down in the plug holes and can't see any cracks or anything off looking. I put about 2 tablespoons of oil down the plug holes but havn't checked compression again after doing that. Also something weird I'm running into is the timing plate on the distributor. When I tighten that bolt down it tightens the spinning mechanism up that goes into the cam so tight I can't even move it with my fingers. When I back the timing plate bolt off it frees right up. Is that normal? This message was edited by Dan39Deluxe on 6-24-20 @ 12:41 PM
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-24-2020 @ 1:33 PM |
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Both what you found on the web and in the book are correct. Do not be confused on where you put the spark plug wires with a firing order. The book diagram is showing the distributor caps sideways and the web is showing the caps as viewed. Install the plug wires into the two distributor caps as described in the web diagram. If you tighten the timing adjustment screw and the distributor no longer can rotate there may be additional problems in the distributor. If you have both intake and exhaust backfire I suggest you lube the valve stems with Marvel Mystery oil. Engines that sit for a long time can often have sticking valves. Also add some MMO to the gas tank. Instructions are on the MMO bottle. This message was edited by 40 Coupe on 6-24-20 @ 1:38 PM
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 06-24-2020 @ 1:40 PM |
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hi Dan as you install the distributor, grab the rotor and turn it as you push the distributor into place, lining up the slot in the cam to the drive edge on the back of dist,AS it falls into place, it should lock into place. if you mark it where the slot is and the dist drive is pointing, it should be close, IT ONLY GOES IN ONE WAY,,,, when it is IN it should not turn except when the engine turns over, you can crank the engine and watch the rotor and see if it rotates, DO NOT FORCE it in, could break the DIST Lets hear how you made out, 37Ragtopman Maine also add a little oil down the carburetor with plugs out and rotate the engine, to get some oil on the valve stems
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-24-2020 @ 2:14 PM |
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Thanks ya I'll def try that with the oil down the carb. I've had the distrib on and off several times I know about the fitment only one way already.
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-24-2020 @ 3:14 PM |
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@40 Coupe thanks I will def try those tips, still not sure about that timing screw issue. I was told by prev owner this distributor was sent off somewhere for rebuild. When I first got it apart the points were all loose, the screws hadn't been tightened. Can't even figure out why its doing it but when I tighten that timing screw, the rotor locks up tighter than a turd. edit: I tried pouring some oil down the carb, I put the plugs back to the online diagram, still backfiring out of both ends but mostly out the carb. This message was edited by Dan39Deluxe on 6-24-20 @ 4:51 PM
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| carcrazy | -- 06-24-2020 @ 7:43 PM |
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Be sure you have the firing order correct, it is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2. If the fuel/air mixture is too lean or the ignition is advanced too far the engine will backfire out of the carburetor. If the ignition timing is too retarded the engine will backfire out of the exhaust. If you have an obstruction in the exhaust system the engine may backfire out of the carburetor before the engine stalls.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 06-25-2020 @ 6:08 AM |
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hi Dan looking at the photos looks like the inner dist cap are dirty, any cracks, or carbon tracks, were the spark could be jumping ? also check the rotor for cracks, once the distributor is in the block and seated the rotor should not turn, maybe rock back and forth,with minute play,? I think the timing screw it too long ? causing the dist plate to lock up ? could be ? this is the one on the right side of distributor ? you say you have blue spark, so I assume the condenser and coil are ok even the points, and be sure to check your firing order is correct, and recheck the inner distributor plates, has the corresponding numbers to match to the ignition wires, they should be color coded RED BLUE YELLOW GREEN ,,,,RHODE ISLAND wiring has VERY nice ones, make sure your fuel supply is ok, many times I used a outboard gas tank to make sure I had enough fuel, this eliminates the gas tank ,lines ect,in the car , for the time being till things get running hope this helps, 37Ragtopman I also run a temporary wire from the battery to the coil, with a resister, or even with out just to get it running for few minutes, so the ignition switch and wiring is eliminated, This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 6-25-20 @ 8:19 AM
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| TomO | -- 06-25-2020 @ 7:41 AM |
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The timing is set by the point gap. Set the points to .015" and the timing mark in the center. This will be enough to get the engine running. The points should be set on a distributor machine by a competent operator. The fact that tightening the timing screw locks up the rotor, means the distributor is not assembled correctly. You can remove the working part 0f the distributor by removing the vacuum brake and timing screw, then pushing the works out of the body. There is a spring wire (snap ring) that keeps the point plate in place. When it is properly installed, the plate can move slightly to adjust the timing. There are 2 cutouts in the base casting, one for the vacuum brake and one for the timing screw. The larger one is for the vacuum brake. I usually have the ends of the snap ring in the larger opening. Tom
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-25-2020 @ 12:07 PM |
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@37RAGTOPMAN The inner distributor caps and rotor are new. The screw is most likely the original, I tried putting a couple extra washers but if it starts to catch the threads it starts locking up, so it's not that its going through it and hitting the thing that spins underneath. Its something to do with when it catches those threads and starts to pull in the direction of the screw it starts locking up. I oiled it a bit and left the screw only marginally tight. The bigger issue is the compression I guess. I tested again today after it sat all night with oil down the carb and plug holes. Gave it a few turns by hand, then cranked it over and checked compression. They were all low, even lower than the first time I checked. All reading 30-40. (I did forget to make sure the carb was fully open and I forgot to clamp the throttle open this time but I did those things the first time I tested compression.) So today I started the long process of disassembly. So far I have the radiator off, the front bumper. I took the intake off to see the status of inside the motor...its very gunked up. So tomorrow I'll try to get front fenders/grill off, then disconnect everything from the motor and try to get it out for a cleaning/rebuild. In my opinion it appears that the engine is not spinning fast enough to fire. Low RPM's. Maybe that could be a reason why the compression is so low? The battery, coil, condenser, the little thing under the dash that cuts the voltage down, are all new. What can cause low RPM's when trying to turn it over? Sludge in the engine? This message was edited by Dan39Deluxe on 6-25-20 @ 12:09 PM
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-25-2020 @ 6:19 PM |
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heres some pics of the wiring order just to make sure I got it right. Holding them in the position they would go in the distributor (blue tape is passenger side) red - 1,5 blue - 2,6 green - 3,7 yellow - 4,8 and a pic of inside the engine to show ya'll what I'm workin with. edit: woops the site rotated my pics when I posted. They should be vertical pics rotated to the right. The outter caps should be pointing up. This message was edited by Dan39Deluxe on 6-25-20 @ 6:23 PM
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-25-2020 @ 6:43 PM |
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Look closely at your distributor caps and you will see numbers embossed. Compare the cap numbers to the drawing off the web you will see which cylinder goes to which cap terminal.
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-26-2020 @ 7:20 AM |
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@40 Coupe thanks for confirming, I wasn't sure those numbers could be relied on but I checked and they all line up now so I'm gonna assume I got the order right now. I think I had it wrong before when it was backfiring. But it wouldn't even remotely start firing with this correct firing order, so I gotta assume it's just not enough compression. Weird though that it would backfire so regularly with the order messed up, but with the order right it won't ignite at all. Gotta be just all gunked up and stuck valves right?
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| TomO | -- 06-26-2020 @ 8:11 AM |
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Slow starter operation can be caused by undersized battery cables, bad solenoid or bad starter. Check to make sure that you have 6 volt battery cables, they should be about the same thickness as your thumb. If you have the correct cables, have your starter checked at a starter , generator and alternator rebuilding service. Tom
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| carcrazy | -- 06-26-2020 @ 10:25 AM |
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Use a little starting fluid to see if you can get it to start. If you have ignition with the correct firing order, it should at least try to start even with slow starter cranking.
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-26-2020 @ 1:37 PM |
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@Tom ya the starter was the first thing we fixed my dad unfroze it but worth taking a closer look. I wasn't so worried about the solenoid and cables cause I was getting a good blue spark. There's prob over 50% chance I'm wrong about the cranking speed anyway. Prob just not used to the slower 6v system. And there's prob a bigger reason why it's not firing. I read somewhere that with low compression they won't start. @carcrazy ya I tried that a bunch already with both straight fuel and starting fluid. She just won't even putter. The weirdest part is it would fire with the firing order wrong and backfire consistently. But now when I'm like 90% sure I got the firing order right, it wont fire. I'm already started now on the long grind of disassembly. It had to be done cause I need to either repair or swap frames and I want to get everything cleaned up anyway. Will try again with everyones tips when she's all put back together. appreciate ya'll
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| cliftford | -- 06-26-2020 @ 4:22 PM |
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I agree that the compression is a way too low Should be more like 80 to 100#. I would pull the heads and check cylinder wear and valves. since they apparently are all low.
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| carcrazy | -- 06-26-2020 @ 5:27 PM |
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Sounds like your spark plugs are fouled out. You don't have any spark if you can't get it to fire with starting fluid. Replace all of the spark plugs with new ones that are properly gaped and tightened down. Even with low compression, 50 to 60 PSI, the engine should start up and run if it has properly timed spark and fuel.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-27-2020 @ 5:35 AM |
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What carburetor do you have ? The Ford 91-99 is a model of the 94 carb that was used for many different years on Fords. These carbs have a power valve that can fail with backfires. A failed power valve will allow too much fuel into the engine causing flooding on restart and while running. Even with a failed PV the engine should start and run but very poor performance It looks like the engine has not run for a long time. I would not be overly concerned at this point with the low compression. Get it running and retake compression after valves are free and seat better. The MMO will help with the valves. It does take time. Keep working on it. You may want to take the carb apart and clean it then reassemble without replacing anything. This may help starting . Plus you will learn a lot about the carb. There are a lot of photos of the internals on the web The same can be said of the distributor. Take it apart and find out what is causung the binding and clean it up make sure everything is free to move and lubed. Clean the contact points and check for about .015" spacing.
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 06-27-2020 @ 4:10 PM |
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It is a 91-99. But no fuel line hooked up I've been just pouring fuel or starting fluid in. I had a strong blue spark last I checked. It's possible I fouled the plugs last time I tried starting it. I'll try again and I'll make sure I still have a good spark first.
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| TomO | -- 06-29-2020 @ 7:52 AM |
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You should fix the cause of the distributor binding before doing anything else. You may been one of the lucky ones that installed the distributor 180 out and did break the casting, but knocked the point plate loose from its position. You may have damaged the rotor in the process. Tom
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| Dan39Deluxe | -- 07-01-2020 @ 12:30 PM |
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I think these pistons need to be replaced. I should get this re bored out right? Any suggestion on bore and piston size? This message was edited by Dan39Deluxe on 7-1-20 @ 2:54 PM
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| therunwaybehind | -- 07-02-2020 @ 11:51 AM |
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The decision to rebore depends on the dimension of the bore and whether it has an out of round or a severe ridge above where the piston rings ran. The appearance is of carbon which can be scr*ped off. You need a ridge reamer to remove the pistons by tapping them out the top without breaking the piston ring interland areas. When putting them back in you need a ring compressor which could be a sleeve exact for the bore or a wrapped up steel spring band for whatever bore you choose. There is also water deposits where the head gasket had holes for the water jacket and lead deposits as forms on spark plugs. You will have to take the oil pan off to get the rods off the crankpins. Put short sections of fuel line hose over the rod studs to avoid nicking the crank journals. Each bore is an individual. New pistons can come in sets of four matched by selective fit to about a half thousands in bore. The rod caps are also individuals to each rod and cannot be reversed on the rod either. Don't just tear it apart and scatter the parts. Some folks use muffin tins or bread tins with labels and others prefer to put tape on each part with a label.
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| TomO | -- 07-03-2020 @ 7:40 AM |
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If you are going to rebuild the engine, make sure that the machine shop is familiar with the 1939 and 1940 blocks. Many of them were made with thin steel sleeves and all of them had floating rod bearings. If the block has the steel sleeves there is no need to bore the engine, just replace the sleeves. Just removing the sleeves and using the block requires that sonic testing of the cylinder walls be done. These blocks are old and rust may have made the walls too thin to accept an overbore. If it does not have sleeves, the max overbore is .062. Any larger bore can result in thin spots in the cylinder walls that could fail when driving the car. The floating rod bearings require that the bearing has an inside and outside specification. The rod bearing opening must be kept round or the bearing will fail. You can also install a crankshaft from a 49-53 Ford or Mercury and use the fixed insert bearing rods. Dan, you should edit your profile to allow private messages and your location. Having your location will allow someone that lives in the same area direct you to local resources, like mechanics and machine shops. Tom
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| carcrazy | -- 07-03-2020 @ 12:50 PM |
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Many of the 1939 and 1940 Flathead V-8's had steel cylinder sleeves. These sleeves are of .o40 wall thickness. They can be removed by a competent machine shop but new sleeves are no longer available in this size. What can be done is to purchase new pistons that have the O.D. of these sleeves plus .003" and hone the cylinder walls to the correct size for these new pistons. Your new bore diameter will be approximately 3 1/16" + .083". This works out to be approximately 3.1455". Be sure to verify that your block is crack-free before proceeding with your rebuild.
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