| hotroddoc | -- 11-08-2019 @ 12:08 PM |
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I have a stock 36 5 window coupe with a 6 volt positive ground that I would like to convert to 12 volts. Among other things I am done with the low starter cranking speed. What do I need to do other than replacing the generator and installing a voltage reducer for the gauges? Do I keep the positive ground or convert that to a negative ground? Thanks, Gary
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| MG | -- 11-08-2019 @ 2:37 PM |
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Other than the "low starter cranking speed", what are the "other things" prompting you to convert to 12 volts?:...
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| CharlieStephens | -- 11-08-2019 @ 3:15 PM |
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I assume your cables are sized for 6 volts (they are larger than the modern 12 volt cables you get at the local auto parts store)? I also assume all of your connections are clean, you have added an extra ground strap (or 2), and had your starter tested by a shop that knows what they are doing? My suggestion would be to convert to negative ground if you insist on doing it. It will allow you to run modern electronics and avoid the problem of someone hooking a replacement battery backwards because they know all 12 volt cars are negative ground. I hope you convert your generator to 12 volts and don't get one of those ugly alternators. Also convert your starter. As MG asked, what are the other things? Charlie Stephens This message was edited by CharlieStephens on 11-8-19 @ 3:17 PM
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| kubes40 | -- 11-08-2019 @ 3:25 PM |
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I too am curious about the "other things". Heck, these old flatheads don't need to turn over very rapidly to start IF everything is in order. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-09-2019 @ 6:17 AM |
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I am aware of the battery cable. How do I know if the correct battery cable is installed? A new Optima 6V battery has been installed. I just thought that a 12 Volt system would be more reliable. Last week I was stuck at a gas station because it would not turn over very well. My son rescued me with a jump. I will check the starter button contact. Thanks
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| kubes40 | -- 11-09-2019 @ 6:24 AM |
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I'm willing to bet the "fix" will easy and cheap. It may take a bit to diagnose but hey, that's part of the fun of old cars! GOOD grounds are paramount with these Fords. You may want to have your starter professionally rebuilt. Or, NAPA sells reconditioned starters (GOOD quality) for around $125. If your fuel and electrical systems are operating well, the car should start hot or cold within a couple of revolutions of the engine. There's many good (knowledgeable) folks here that I am certain are more than willing to help. Together, we'll get ya there! Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| 51woodie | -- 11-09-2019 @ 7:27 AM |
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Hotrod. As Kubes said, these old engines start easily if all is in order. Good advice above on items to check/correct. My '46 Super Deluxe with 6V + ground, starts at a touch of the started button when warm, and turns over a few times when cold. I have a 6V lead acid battery from NAPA, but I have to admit that I did install a 6V + ground alternator by Powermaster, so charging is not an issue. It has always started in the three years that I have had the car.
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| kirkstad | -- 11-09-2019 @ 8:10 AM |
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I have a 36 coupe also and have no problems with starting. If the car has been sitting a week or more, I'll turn the starter until I see oil pressure on my mechanical gauge then start.When the engine is warm it will start within one or two turns. Many years ago when I replaced all the original wiring I took the starter apart and cleaned allot of surface rust off the armature and field coils,you might try that.
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-09-2019 @ 9:41 AM |
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Thank you everyone for your input. Where you suggest adding the additional grounding cables?
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| 1934 Ford | -- 11-09-2019 @ 10:24 AM |
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Replace both your battery cables with 0000 ones from a starter/generator shop with soldered & swedged on cable ends. You'll think you have 12 Volts when the ground is good an the starter gets enough voltage. The 6 volt cables are as big as your thumb, 12 volt cables are like a pencil in size. Then keep them clean. 1934 Ford's since 1972
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-09-2019 @ 4:49 PM |
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Thanks everyone. I’ll start working on your suggestions
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| trjford8 | -- 11-09-2019 @ 5:11 PM |
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Grounding, grounding , grounding is critical. Make sure you have good clean grounds from the firewall or body to the frame and from the motor to the frame. If you have the old braided ground cable from the battery to the frame they have a tendency to corrode and are problematic. I personally do not use them. Also make sure your starter has a good clean ground to the pan. I think your problem will be easy to solve without resorting to changing to 12 volts.
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| sarahcecelia | -- 11-10-2019 @ 2:39 PM |
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Isn't that the truth Mike! My 1940 is 6 volts and starts in about a 3 second crank! My stock 1950 is the same. I have 4 cars, so if one stands a week or so, I push the pedal to the floor 2 times to prime the intake, and pull out he choke about 1/4; then I leave my foot off the gas, and they crank right up!! The only one ,of the four that is 12volt is the '50 with the engine so hopped up, that 6 volts wouldn't crank it- so I went t0 12 volts, and a high torque starter to get the thing to crank! My other car is a 1957 Corvette, and they were all 12 volt. Regards, Steve Lee
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| gfstew | -- 11-10-2019 @ 4:52 PM |
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i went threw this 6 Months ago Every one said do not change it to 12 Volts and I am happy I did I have a 36 Ford 2 door sedan I bought Randy Rumdle he is in Clay Center KS. 12 volt conversion Guide Best thing I did . i still have the original starter , change the Ground to Negative Put Powermaster 1 wire alternator it looks just like the original generator,, do the drop down on your gauges and you will need to change the coil to a 12 volt internal ballast resistor coil you can get the at Napa Auto . Randy book tells it all . I put LED 12 Volt Park lights in and Halogen bulbs in then and LED tail Lights it takes a little time and you will be happy I am so happy since I changed my 36 Ford 2 door sedan Good Luck
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| gfstew | -- 11-10-2019 @ 4:59 PM |
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Sorry randy Book is $15.00 and Like everyone says replace your battery cables with good new battery cables .
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| trjford8 | -- 11-11-2019 @ 7:22 AM |
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If you put halogen bulbs in your headlights I hope you put in a relay for them.
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| TomO | -- 11-11-2019 @ 7:58 AM |
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In addition to the items that you mentioned, you will have to replace all of the light bulbs and have your radio changed over. The starter will run for a while on 12 volts, but it should be changed also. Changing to 12 volts can lead to other problems, such as getting a good replacement coil. If your only concern is the slow turning of the starter, that is an easy fix by diagnosing the problem. The first thing to determine is why your starter is turning slow. Causes: Starter not getting enough current: Connect a volt meter COM lead to the NEG battery post, the POS lead on te starter terminal and crank the engine with the ignition off. The meter should read 0.4 Volts or less. If it reads more than that, there is excessive resistance in the circuit, you should continue to test the voltage circuit. If it reads 0.4 or less, go to the grounding test. Move the POS lead to the starter terminal on the starter switch and repeat the test. The meter should read 0.3 volts or less. If it does, the cable to the starter is bad. If the reading is higher, move the POS lead to the other side of the starter and repeat the test. The meter should now read 0.2 volts or less. If it reads higher, the cable from the battery is bad. If it reads 0.2 volts or lower the starter switch is bad. Ground circuit has resistance: Connect the POS lead of your meter to the POS terminal of the battery and the COM lead to the bolt holding the starter to the engine. Crank the engine and read the meter. It should read 0.1 volts or less. If it does not, you have poor grounding. Check the grounding cable for hesitance by moving the meter lead to the frame bolt and repeating the test. If the cable is good, the starter end or the pan starter mount may have been painted. These surfaces need to be clean for the starter to have a good ground. You may also want to install a grounding cable from the engine to the frame or the body, if there is not one present. If all of these tests are good, it is most likely that the starter is not in good condition or you have a 12 volt starter. You do not have to have special cables made, correct length and gauge battery and starter cables are available from most vendors. They will work fine for many years if the starting circuit is in good condition. Once you have your starter cranking at normal speed and still have to crank it for long periods, come back here for advice on how to diagnose those problems. Good luck Gary and come back here if you have any other questions. Tom
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-11-2019 @ 1:57 PM |
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I appreciate everyone's comments. The battery cables are the correct size. I just placed a grounding cable from the engine to the frame. It still cranks for about a second or so then quits. I have to keep pressing the starter button but the starter only turns for a second or two. My next move is to make sure the starter button-plate is clean.
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-11-2019 @ 2:00 PM |
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I'll try the voltmeter test next. This message was edited by hotroddoc on 11-12-19 @ 4:55 PM
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| TomO | -- 11-12-2019 @ 8:28 PM |
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Nice looking car, you need to be able to start it. I misunderstood your problem. I understood that your starter was turning slow, not that it turned for a second and then stopped. Do you still have the floor starter switch or has your car been converted to a dash button and a solenoid? The floor starter switch could have burned contacts or a loose c onnection. The dash button could be defective, it could have a poor ground or the wire from the switch to the solenoid could have a bad crimp at one of the ends. Test by connecting a jumper wire from the center terminal of the solenoid to ground. The starter should turn as long as the jumper is connected to ground. If it doesn't, the solenoid is probably bad. Tom
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| trjford8 | -- 11-13-2019 @ 6:51 AM |
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If you have the floor starter switch it may be a reproduction. I've seen more than one of those give problems. I would search around for an NOS or NORS USA made switch.
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-15-2019 @ 8:13 AM |
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Thank you for your reply. Do you have any suggestions for a source for a replacement floor switch?
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| TomO | -- 11-15-2019 @ 7:29 PM |
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I suggest that you do the voltmeter tests that I posted. The reproduction starter switches are not good quality and replacing yours may not fix the problem. You should diagnose the problem so you only replace the failing component. If it is your starter switch and it is an original Ford switch, you may be able to open it up and clean the contacts. If that is not possible, you will have to use a reproduction switch and place a want ad for a NOS switch or look on Ebay. Try https://www.rearcounter.com/ to search for a switch or third generation parts.b Tom
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-17-2019 @ 2:00 PM |
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Hello Tom, I did the Voltmeter test as you had suggested. Starter: Com to Negative battery post and Pos to the starter terminal = 0.86 V Ground Circuit Resistance: Pos lead to Pos battery terminal. Com to Grounding Bolt of starter 0.70 V Pos lead to Pos battery terminal. com to Grounding strap 0.62 V the starter switch looks like a reproduction. One Puzzling observation: When I hook up the voltmeter to test starter test, the voltmeter registers 5.68 V before I depress the starter button. Gary
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| TomO | -- 11-18-2019 @ 8:35 PM |
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Starter: Com to Negative battery post and Pos to the starter terminal = 0.86 V You have high resistance in the starter circuit. Move the POS lead to the battery cable side of the starter switch and repeat the test. The reading should be 0.1 or less. If it is higher, check the cable for corrosion, clean the battery post and cable. Repeat the test, if you still have the high reading, replace the cable. Next move the POS lead to the starter side of the starter switch and repeat the test. The reading should be 0.2 V or less. If it is higher, you can see if you can clean the switch contacts or replace the switch. Next repeat the original connection and test. If the reading is above 0.2 V, replace the cable Ground Circuit Resistance: Pos lead to Pos battery terminal. Com to Grounding Bolt of starter 0.70 V Pos lead to Pos battery terminal. com to Grounding strap 0.62 V You have very high resistance in the grounding circuit. Your grounding strap may not be the correct gauge, too long, corroded or not making good contact with the frame. Order the correct grounding strap from a quality supplier. Repeat the test after replacing the cable. the starter switch looks like a reproduction. One Puzzling observation: When I hook up the voltmeter to test starter test, the voltmeter registers 5.68 V before I depress the starter button. You will read battery voltage until the starter is activated. This is a normal reading. Your reading is lower than normal, proba bly because the grounding circuit has high resistance. Tom
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| hotroddoc | -- 11-29-2019 @ 11:01 AM |
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After running all of the tests, I appears that the battery was low. After a charge, It is cranking OK . Now I need to determine why is the battery draining and not charging while running the car. Any suggestions on how I can test the generator? Gary
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| TomO | -- 11-29-2019 @ 8:45 PM |
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Just watch the ammeter. It should show a reading in the positive direction when the engine speed is about 20 mph, then turn on the head lights, the ammeter should not show a discharge. If you have the stock generator with a cutout, you can adjust the 3rd brush to increase the charging rate. You can check for a drain on the battery by connecting a test light between the battery post and the battery cable. If the light comes on, you have a drain. Check the brake lights, parking lights and dome light, if they are not on, use the wiring diagram as a guide to start disconnecting wires until the test light does not work any more. Tom
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| sarahcecelia | -- 11-30-2019 @ 1:32 PM |
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MY 1940 V8 STARTS ALMOST INSTANTLY WITH 6 VOLTS, WHEN WARM OR HOT WITH MY FOOT OFF THRE ACCELEATOR PEDAL!! QUICKLY WHEN COLD AFTER SITTING FOR A FEW DAYS; I PUSH THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL TWICE TO PRIME THE INTAKE MANIFOLD, PULL THE CHOKE OUT ABOUT 1/3, AND IT STARTS RIGHT UP; THEN I EASE THE CHOKE IN A LITTLE TO ABOUT 1/4 FOR ABOUT 45 SECONDS, AND THE PUSH IT OFF. 6 VOLTS WORKS VERY WELL WHEN ALL IS IN ORDER!! Regards, Steve Lee
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-02-2020 @ 9:18 AM |
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hi 6volt to 12 volt ? I think this is bad thing to do. these cars have been used for 80 years using 6 volts. this might be a WAY Easier and cheaper way to go, JUST list the things you have to change to do this, ignition coil, is the first, fuel gauge, sending unit plus MUCH MORE I would remove the starter and check in what condition it is in,.brushes, dirty com, post loose " and more, CERTIFIED AUTO ELECTRIC in OHIO can rebuild yours with a high torque fields, and include a new old stock bendix, I just had one done,,,, also a overlooked item is the ground cable from the engine to ground,this is part of the system, do you have headers on the engine, these can also cause starter problems.,because of the heat. my 2 cents 1937Ragtopman
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| hotroddoc | -- 01-04-2020 @ 5:47 AM |
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I think that there is a drain on the battery. When the battery is fully charged,the engine turns over pretty good. I am in the process of installing a battery cut off switch. Would it be better to have the positive ground wire run through the switch or connect the negative wire to the switch? I had two 3-0 cables made. Thanks
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| TomO | -- 01-04-2020 @ 8:00 PM |
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Switch the grounded side, which should be the POS cable. If you have a drain, it should be located and fixed. Depending on what is causing the drain, it could start a fire. Connect a test light between the NEG cable and the battery post. If there is a drain, the light will glow. If the light glows, pull the fuse, this will eliminate all of the lights as a source. Tom
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-05-2020 @ 8:42 AM |
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if you have a drain now, you will most likely have a fire with 12 volts, disconnect the ground cable on battery post, put a test light from the post to ground, and see if it lights, if it does start ,,,checking for lights on, like STOP LIGHTS, glove box, clock, starter switch,etc you have to start eliminate them one at a time, till the light goes out, if you have mechanical brakes check the brake light switch, I had a MODEL A that did the same thing and found out it was the starer switch, made contact but not enough to make that starter turn, hope this helps 1937RAGTOPMAN This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 1-5-20 @ 8:49 AM
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| hotroddoc | -- 01-13-2020 @ 1:59 PM |
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Thanks for your input. I don't have a test light handy but when I hooked up my voltmeter in the manner you described, the reading starts out at 1.6V and settles down to 0.25V. There are an additional two wires connected to to live side of the ignition switch. One goes to a fuse panel and the other to the voltage regulator. when I removed them, the voltmeter read 0.0V. Reconnecting only the voltage regulator wire, the reading is 0.03V Reconnecting only the fuse panel wire, The reading is 0.25V Should I move the two wires to the switched side of the ignition switch or just the fuse panel wire Gary This message was edited by hotroddoc on 1-13-20 @ 4:48 PM
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| TomO | -- 01-14-2020 @ 8:02 AM |
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If you have a reproduction or original wiring harness, the wire going to the fuse panel should be the hot lead for the ignition switch, moving it to the switched side would make your ignition hot all of the time and you would not be able to shut off the ignition. The wiring diagram shows the wire going to the cutout should be at the hot side of the fuse panel so that it is hot all of the time. I am not sure of what you are measuring with your voltmeter hookup, but my best guess is that it is the resistance of your meter leads and meter. You probably have some current flowing or the meter would read 0 V. If your meter has a 10 amp scale, you can connect it like you did for the voltage test and read the current flowing. Pull the fuse if you have a current reading. If it goes away the short is in the light circuit, if it does not remove the hot wire at the cutout. If it goes away, the cutout is bad. If it doesn't go away, disconnect the wires at the hot side of the fuse one at a time until you find the circuit that is bad. http://vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_electrical-pics/Flathead_Electrical_wiring1936.jpg 6 / 12 volt test lights are priced under $10 at many sources or you could make your own with a light socket by attaching a hot wire to the bulb contact and the grounding wire to the bulb socket. Tom
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