| mzahorik | -- 09-24-2018 @ 9:49 AM |
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Recently while driving my 1937 Ford 78, the engine died. It felt like I ran out of gas and coasted to a stop. After getting a tow home, I found some white stuff in my sediment bowl. I also found a wad of this same stuff at the union of the steel line to the rubber line leading to the fuel pump. See picture. To me it looks like pieces of a plastic shopping bag. It is thin and somehow apparently gets sucked up through the fuel line. So, there must be something in my gas tank. Anyone ever see anything like this? Thanks Mike
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| CharlieStephens | -- 09-24-2018 @ 10:14 AM |
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My guess would be that someone used teflon tape to seal a fitting and that is what you are looking at. If that is the case you are lucky and there won't be anything in the tank. Charlie Stephens
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| mzahorik | -- 09-24-2018 @ 11:28 AM |
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Could be, but these pieces are larger than 1/2" tape. The unfolded piece is about 1 inch square. Mike
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-24-2018 @ 11:49 AM |
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If someone used the old type gas tank sealer, it may be being attacked by the new ethanol fuel. From what I have been told the two aren't compatible. Those pieces look much bigger than teflon tape.
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| 6lucky13 | -- 09-24-2018 @ 1:35 PM |
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That was my thought also...gas tank sealer peeling off the tank surface. Kerry Kerry
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| mzahorik | -- 09-24-2018 @ 1:46 PM |
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Geezzz.... if it's old sealer, I'll have to remove the tank and get it cleaned. Maybe once the tank is out of the car I can get a better look inside. Mike
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| kubes40 | -- 09-24-2018 @ 2:20 PM |
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Cleaning the tank must be done extremely well. If not, and new sealer is applied, it'll peel off due to the poor surface to which it was applied. Think along the lines of painting... the paint adheres only as good as the surface was prepared. I'd hate to see you go to all of this effort only to relive it at some future date. You might consider a new tank. The Drake tanks are decent and fairly priced. Not concourse correct and you can't use an authentic sending unit but may fit your needs. just a thought... Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-24-2018 @ 3:58 PM |
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I'm going thru the same situation with a Model A gas tank. It was sealed in the early '70s and the stuff is now coming off in pieces similar to the ones you show. The other issue is that the new type sealant is not compatable and won't adhere to the old sealer. If I can't find a suitable replacement tank at Hershey I'm going to cut access holes in the bottom of the tank and have the inside sandblasted and recoat it with the new type sealer from Bill Hirsch. I have been reading about a process called Re-Nu, that looks like cured J-B Weld and hard as a rock and have to research it further.
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| TomO | -- 09-24-2018 @ 8:35 PM |
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Mike, you can remove the sending unit by removing an access panel in the trunk. Then you can get a decent look at the interior of the tank. I just had the tank on my Lincoln cleaned of old sealer this Spring. It looks like someone did not drain the excess out of the tank when they coated it or coated it without cleaning properly. Tom
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| mzahorik | -- 09-25-2018 @ 7:33 AM |
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Well...... looks like you guys are correct. Someone had definitely been in the tank in the past. It has a nice coat of paint on the outside, the sender wiring has been changed and the sender is bolted in with Allen screws. I got the sender out. Now would be a nice time to test it. My gas gauge doesn't work quite right. BUT.... looking in the tank there are large areas of bare metal shining back at me, but also, sheets of this off white plastic sheet stuff, A lot of it looks like it is loose. It's a shame that someone did a lot of work that didn't last. I'll have to drain the tank and get it out. There must be some thing that will clean that stuff out. Look what the gasoline did to it. Mike
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| mzahorik | -- 09-25-2018 @ 7:44 AM |
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Looking at my gas gauge sender, mine has a cork float and it seems to be heavy as a rock. Maybe that is why my gauge does work so good. I was thinking of trying to get some of this sealer material out of the tank and see what will soften or melt it and maybe clean the tank with that. After all the loose stuff is out. Mike
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-25-2018 @ 9:50 AM |
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There is a process that must be used when you use a sealer inside the tank. First the tank must be perfectly dry and then an etching solution used. Only then can the sealer be used. Part of the issue is that sometimes a quart of sealer isn't enough. Also, the tank baffles restrict the flow of the sealer and even though you try to turn the tank over and over it doesn't cover all the surfaces. When the sealer doesn't cover the entire surface it leaves an edge that over time will fail and allow pieces to flake off. If the etching solution doesn't get the entire surface clean it will also cause problems. Sealing a gas tank isn't a simple job and can cause problems in the long run. I'm told that every tank sealed in the '70s and '80s will eventually be effected by the ethanol fuel.
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-25-2018 @ 10:15 AM |
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Google, "Gas Tank Renu", this is the site that I was looking at. If you can't get a replacement tank, this might be the way to go.
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| mzahorik | -- 09-25-2018 @ 11:46 AM |
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I reached into the sender hole and pulled out a 3x3 inch piece of sealer. On the bench I put a couple oz of acetone in a jar and put the sealer into it. The sealer melted in less than 2 minutes. Looks like I'm going to remove the tank and wash it out with acetone. Mike
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-25-2018 @ 2:51 PM |
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Well that's encouraging! I would get a couple of gallons of the Acetone and keep moving the tank around and dissolve the sealer. If you know someone with a borescope I would borrow it and have a look inside the tank to see the results. I would also strain the Acetone and repeat it as necessary. Keep us posted.
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| TomO | -- 09-26-2018 @ 7:02 AM |
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Mike, be careful with acetone and wear chemical resistant gloves tha are not affected by the acetone. Here is what the CDC has to say about acetone. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0087.html Also do a search on removing the gas tank on a 37 Ford. You will need a spanner wrench and some time for a penetrating fluid to loosen the corrosion. You will also need a new lead seal for the filler tube. In a couple of cases, leaving the cork float dry out and then coating it with Seal-All have made the float work again. There do not seem to be good alternatives for replacing the float. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 9-26-18 @ 7:09 AM
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| mzahorik | -- 09-26-2018 @ 8:34 AM |
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Getting the tank out was not a problem. I think this tank is only a few years old! It is solid, no rust and seems to have a nice coar of paint on it and the inside is shiny where there is no sealer. All the hardware came appart nicely and the tank dropped out very easy. Next I want to make a plate to cover the sender hole and then try the acetone. Mike
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| mzahorik | -- 09-26-2018 @ 9:37 AM |
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This tank is in great shape. The cage nuts are excellent and so is the tank. It has to be nearly new.
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| mzahorik | -- 09-26-2018 @ 9:37 AM |
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Top view. Too bad there has to be all that junk inside. Mike This message was edited by mzahorik on 9-26-18 @ 9:38 AM
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-26-2018 @ 9:55 AM |
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By the sound of your description of "the tank is shiny where there is no sealer" makes me think that who ever put the sealer in the tank did not use enough. The ethanol fuel will attack a raw edge first. Most people I have talked to tell me that one quart of sealer is not enough. I know that the sealer is a bit pricey at a bit over $30 a quart, but by not using enough, look what you are going thru. When I do my tank I'm going to put in about a gallon of the stuff!
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| mzahorik | -- 09-26-2018 @ 10:00 AM |
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Well, between you, me and the fence post, once this tank is clean, I'm leaving it that way. This tank will last my life time. Let the next guy give it a try. Maybe between now and then there will be another change in the gasoline that will attack the new stuff. Look how long an unsealed tank lasted. I'll just have to drive this car more. Mike
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| MG | -- 09-26-2018 @ 10:09 AM |
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Mike - I glued two ethanol proof Model A floats together to make one float to use as a replacement for the cork float I had in my '37. I used epoxy to glue this new float on to the arm of the sender. As a further precaution, I then sprayed the assembled float with a clear fuel-proof model airplane dope. It worked like a champ! I've attached a picture below. You can purchase these ethanol resistant floats from MAC's at this link > https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_a/model-a-ford-gas-gauge-float-modern-neoprene-improved-compound.html This message was edited by MG on 9-26-18 @ 10:22 AM
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| mzahorik | -- 09-26-2018 @ 10:13 AM |
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Say... that's pretty neat. I was prepared to solder a brass float to my rod. But this would be a lot easier and should last quite a while. I'll order some and see what happens, Thanks Mike By the way, I made a cable that would connect the sender to the car and allow me to seat in the front seat and operate the sender. The Sender is fine. My problem was the heavy float. Thanks Mike This message was edited by mzahorik on 9-26-18 @ 10:33 AM
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-26-2018 @ 11:25 AM |
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I don't know how similar the floats are, but Brattons Model A, sells a gas and alcohol proof float for Model A's, PN 13550
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| MG | -- 09-26-2018 @ 3:18 PM |
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Mike - When you order the floats you should order a couple of the lead washers to seal the bond between the cast seat of the tank and the filler neck - if this is the arrangement you have. These washers can be purchased from MAC's as well. See > https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mercury_early/gas-tank-washer-lead-ford-passenger.html
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| TomO | -- 09-27-2018 @ 7:18 AM |
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Mike, The tank was initially coated with a tin-lead alloy (tern) to prevent rusting. If you do not coat the tank, it will start rusting as soon as you finish cleaning it, if the original coating has been compromised. The current Ethanol blend of fuel is very corrosive and any air space will add oxygen needed to assist in the corrosion. The coating that is floating around in your tank failed because of improper procedure in applying it. The coating is like paint. The surface must be clean, the film should not be too thick and the coating should be completely cured before use. I used Bill Hirsch's coating in both of my cars gas tanks and have had no problem with either of them. Acetone will not dissolve his coating if it is cured. The only chemical that softens it is Methyl-Ethyl-Keytone. I still have a couple of drops on my driveway from 2003 when I did my Mercury tank. A thin coat is all that you need. My Lincoln tank too about 1/2 pint to seal it. The Mercury tank took a little less. When you coat the tank, rotate it in all directions slowly, letting it sit in each position long enough for the coating to cover the surface, about 2 minutes. Do this several times and then remove the drain plug and let the excess drain out. If you want to, you can repeat the coating process with the product that drained out according to the instructions. I let the product cure about twice as long as the instructions say. Tom
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| mzahorik | -- 09-27-2018 @ 1:38 PM |
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Today, first I tried to remove as much of the sealer as I could from the sender hole. You can see the fuel pickup and there was a large piece of loose sealer around the pickup. I got that out and then pushed a wire into the fuel line port. A sausage of old sealer came out. Maybe 1/4" in diameter and 6 inches long. I purchased a gallon of acetone and put about 1/2 of it in the tank. Sealed all the holes and sloshed it around for 5 minutes. I looked in the tank and most of the old sealer had dissolved. I drained the acetone and it came out a dark milky color, started out clear. Then the other half was put in the tank and sloshed around for 5 minutes. Now the areas that I can see are clean. Draining the acetone was still milky, but more like water not as opaque. I think I'll let the tank air out and do this again tomorrow or later. Mike
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-27-2018 @ 5:41 PM |
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If you can find someone with a bore scope to take a good look inside I would borrow it. You want to get all that stuff out. One little piece can ruin the day.
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| TomO | -- 09-28-2018 @ 7:03 AM |
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Mike, acetone works better if you do not let the paint dry out between applications. There are inexpensive inspection cameras that connect to a smart phone if you use one. They run less than $25 and work good enough to see if there is any residue left. Tom
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| mzahorik | -- 09-28-2018 @ 12:13 PM |
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I do two rinses in a row, 1/2 gallon each. Did one today, and there still is a milky tinge to the drain. Figure I'll do one more. I don't have a 'smart phone'. Mine still hangs on the wall. I spend my money on cars. Anyway a mechanic friend has a bore scope which I used in the past. You connect it to a lap top, so you get a big picture. Getting close to being done. Mike
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-28-2018 @ 3:41 PM |
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I would also install a throw away filter as close to the tank as possible to catch anything that might be left in the tank. I would use the car for a while and replace the filter a couple of times. Sounds like you are doing a good job with the acetone, I think that's what I'll try with this Model A tank.
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| mzahorik | -- 09-29-2018 @ 7:08 AM |
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A filter is a good idea, yet most of the clog was in the pickup pipe of the tank. Seems the the steel lines have a large diameter than any of the connections. At a connection point the hole necks down and this is where the blockage seems to occur. The drain of the last wash was nearly clear. The borescope inspect looks good. I want to blow out the fuel line to be sure that is also clear. All seems to be good. MIke
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 09-29-2018 @ 10:09 AM |
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Tom O, I read your post and you only used a 1/2 pint to seal a Lincoln gas tank? Everyone I have talked to said a quart isn't enough and to use a minimum of 3 quarts to get entire coverage! Even when I talked to the people at Bill Hirsch, they recommended two!
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| TomO | -- 09-30-2018 @ 7:51 AM |
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The first time that I sealed a tank was in 1975 and I sloshed it around with several coats to get a nice solid covering. I let the tank sit empty over the winter and put it in the car in the spring. In the fall of 1976, I had yellow spaghetti in my fule lines and yellow curtains in the tank. I took it back to the stripper to have it stripped again and he told that he had done many tanks the second time because the coating was too thick. when I got the tank back, I followed his recommendation to just use one coat and slush the coating around several times, leaving enough time in each position to allow the coating to flow over the surface. That coating lasted until I had it removed in 2004, because I was concerned that the yellow coating was not ethanol resistant and it would start peeling. IMHO:Thin coats seem to last longer and will protect the tank. Thick coats may not cure properly and tend to fail sooner. Tom
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