Topic: 1937 front leaf spring

mzahorik	-- 09-09-2018 @ 4:18 PM
	Recently, while changing the oil in the engine, transmission and rear axle. I noticed that there was something strange about my front leaf spring. Each eyelet has been cut in half, so that the main leaf only curls around the shackle bolt half way. And the weight of the car pushes the spring ends away from the shackle. I also noticed that the round bushing of the shackle is worn flat, where the spring lays on it. I believe that someone changed the front spring with something they had, just to make it work. So, I've been looking around for a replacement spring. I see that this car (Model 78 four door) could have had an 11, 12 or 13 leaf spring in the front. My old spring seems to have nine leaves. I checked the rear spring and this one looks more original. The eyelets are whole there seems to be a zerk at the center for greasing the leaves, but this spring also seems to have only 9 leaves. I found that Eaton Detroit makes replacement springs, but I am not sure which spring to get. I figure maybe I'll shot for the middle, 12 leaves? Any ideas or thoughts? Thanks Mike
TomO	-- 09-10-2018 @ 7:09 AM
	Your front spring could be a 10 leaf spring. You may not be able to see the short leaf at the top. If it a 10 or 11 leaf spring, and you replace it with a 12 leaf spring, you will also have to change the U-bolts. Refer to the parts catalog for the correct clamp (U-bolt) for the spring that you select. Mike Dennis (Hemmings advertiser) had quite a collection of NOS springs a few years ago. He was much less expensive that Eaton. I would contact him to see if he has the replacement spring. Tom
mzahorik	-- 09-10-2018 @ 8:35 AM
	Tom, thanks for the reply. Something else I noticed. My 1950 Ford Chassis Parts & Accessories Catalog shows a picture of the passenger front suspension. The picture shows that there are two shackle bushing/bolts on each side of the spring. My car is different. The front radius rods which the front axle is bolted to, has a finger that curls over the top of the axle and has a "tee" and two studs where the side plates of the shackle bolt on. Do I have something that is odd? The catalog picture doesn't have any years associated with it. It also says it is only an illustration. Anyway, I look at the source you mentioned. Thanks again Mike
mzahorik	-- 09-10-2018 @ 12:13 PM
	Well..... after looking at more pictures in my Chassis Parts book, I think what happened to my car is that some time in the past the main leaf broke on the front spring. Then instead of replacing it, it was just removed. Pictures show that the second leaf has a curved end, the same curved end I see on my car. Anyway I called Mike Dennis and he is looking to see if he has a spring. Thanks Mike.
3w2	-- 09-10-2018 @ 5:15 PM
	The current spring set up suggests that you have been lucky. I would not drive the car even one foot until the spring is replaced with the correct shackle studs and connecting links.
kubes40	-- 09-10-2018 @ 5:33 PM
	As others have mentioned, your car could have been built with a ten, eleven or twelve leaf spring. Typically it would have been a twelve leaf spring assembly. I'd stay away from eaton of at all possible as the spring you get from them won't be "concourse correct" and won't have the same ride and handling characteristics of a Ford OEM spring. NOS are still out there. In fact, just today I'd installed front and rear NOS springs on a clients '36. That illustration you speak of is just that - an illustration. Don't be too concerned with the fact that yours doesn't appear just like the drawing. Do you have the proper tools to install new shackle pins and R & R the spring? Mike "Kube" Kubarth
kubes40	-- 09-10-2018 @ 5:33 PM
	As others have mentioned, your car could have been built with a ten, eleven or twelve leaf spring. Typically it would have been a twelve leaf spring assembly. I'd stay away from eaton of at all possible as the spring you get from them won't be "concourse correct" and won't have the same ride and handling characteristics of a Ford OEM spring. NOS are still out there. In fact, just today I'd installed front and rear NOS springs on a clients '36. That illustration you speak of is just that - an illustration. Don't be too concerned with the fact that yours doesn't appear just like the drawing. Do you have the proper tools to install new shackle pins and R & R the spring? Mike "Kube" Kubarth
trjford8	-- 09-11-2018 @ 7:45 AM
	I agree that you should try to find a good stock spring. Your front spring is riding on the shackles with what is called the "safety leaf" and you are missing the original main leaf. The 37-40 Fords use the same front spring so you should be able to find a good or maybe new front spring. I suspect as others have said that you should have the 10 leaf spring.
trjford8	-- 09-11-2018 @ 7:46 AM
	I agree that you should try to find a good stock spring. Your front spring is riding on the shackles with what is called the "safety leaf" and you are missing the original main leaf. The 37-40 Fords use the same front spring so you should be able to find a good or maybe new front spring. I suspect as others have said that you should have the 10 leaf spring.
kubes40	-- 09-11-2018 @ 7:57 AM
	Mzahorik, Is it possible that you could post a photo of what you have here? Perhaps two? I'd like to see the end, where the perch pins go as well as the center where the "U bolts" are. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
mzahorik	-- 09-11-2018 @ 12:14 PM
	I just got off the phone with Mike Dennis and he is sending me a 12 leaf front spring. You mention tools to replace the shackle pins. Are the upper pins pressed into the radius rod arms (wishbone)? Could I use a hardened tube to press the old pins out? The bottoms ones will not be a problem. Here is a picture.
kubes40	-- 09-11-2018 @ 2:13 PM
	It appears that your current spring is intact. That is, nothing is missing. However, it is just as apparent that the spring has long since given up its life. It's SHOT! Both the perch and spring eye pins were pressed in. There should be between a .003" and .005" interference fit. Do NOT grind the body of any pin down to allow it to be pressed in easier. That interference was designed in to this assembly for a very good reason. The bottom pin is easiest of all to install as the spring eye is open and will give a bit. The perch pin, on the other hand, is not forgiving. To do this task properly, you need the proper press tool. You might ask around your area. Getting the old ones out of the perch can be, and usually is, difficult. With the axle in the chassis, I find it best to pound the center pin out completely. Then, remove the packing. And finally, remove the outer (bushing) sleeve. Some guys put a hack saw blade in there and split the old sleeve prior to driving it out. Me? I'd modified a small cold chisel to get under the sleeve and split it as I pound it inward. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
mzahorik	-- 09-11-2018 @ 2:25 PM
	Kube, shouldn't the main leaf have a completely closed eyelet where the shackle pin fits? You can see in the picture that either the bottom half of the eyelet is either missing or it has opened up, A LOT! and on both sides. No matter as a different spring is one the way. Are there three parts to the shackle pin? An outer sleeve, the barrel and the pin which has the bolt threads that holds the shackle ends on? This is my first experience with a Ford V8. I have a lot of experience with Model T's. What if I remove the wishbone and press the shackle out on my arbor press? I could make some fittings to make this push. Thanks Mike
mzahorik	-- 09-11-2018 @ 3:04 PM
	Just spent some time looking for front shackle replacements for my 1937. Seems there are the original steel type and a newer type using rubber. Any suggestions as to which would be better or problems with either?
kubes40	-- 09-11-2018 @ 3:55 PM
	I looked closer at the picture you'd provided.. It almost appears as if the main leaf is absent. That seems hard to believe and if true, incredibly dangerous. Your NOS spring will have an eye that is nearly 360° but "slit" at one end. You may remove the wishbone if you like. A bit of a task of course... The perch and spring pins are an assembly of sorts. The inside is the stud - threaded on each end with a square to mate with the shackle bars. The stud is surrounded by a packing of oil soaked asbestos. And finally, around that is the metal sleeve. While the rubber service parts are much easier to install, they won't provide the engineered reflex of the authentic design. If you make a tool to press the bushing (pin) in, you need to be certain it is threaded so it mates with the stud. It also needs to bottom out against the outer sleeve. In effect, you need to push on both the stud AND the sleeve simultaneously. I suppose if you are simply planning on using this car as a local driver, the rubber type may be the best way for you to go. MUCH easier to install. If you are attempting to restore the ride and handling, then the metal wrapped pins are the only choice. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
40cpe	-- 09-11-2018 @ 5:17 PM
	I don't have anything constructive to add, but it looks to me like the eye of the main leaf is still on the shackle.
kubes40	-- 09-11-2018 @ 5:58 PM
	40cpe, I hope you are correct Mike "Kube" Kubarth
mzahorik	-- 09-12-2018 @ 8:35 AM
	This morning I got the spring out. You guys are correct the main leaf is there. The shackle plates were hiding it. But there is something odd about this spring. There is a different center bolt that is rather long and there is another leaf added to the top of the spring. Turns out this is a 12 leaf spring and the added leaf is about 12 inches long and attached upside down on the spring top, so it curves up instead of down. No matter, a new one is on the way. I am having trouble removing the upper shackle bolts. I have gotten them to spin inside the bushing, but they will not pull out. You mentioned that there is asbestos inside. Could that be what is holding the pin in? Maybe if I push and pull on the pin the asbestos will finally wear out and the pin will come out? Or, should I make a puller with a screw and pull them out. Then I have to deal with the bushing barrel. Thanks for the help. Mike
40cpe	-- 09-12-2018 @ 9:06 AM
	I have taken a drill bit small enough to fit between the shackle bolt and the outer housing and run it through the rubber material all around. This tears the rubber enough that I drive the bolt out.
mzahorik	-- 09-12-2018 @ 9:47 AM
	Well...... I made a puller and this pulled the shackle bolts out. The trouble is that the shackle bolt has a bunch of bumps in it and this is what must be holding the bolt in the bushing. The bushing itself is next, but this is going to take a real heavy puller. I was reading in one of my books and it says I need KRW V-170 tool. There is a picture so maybe I can make a puller like it. Thanks for the help Mike
40cpe	-- 09-12-2018 @ 11:16 AM
	As said above, it is fairly simple to just cut the outer portion of the bushing with a hacksaw blade or chisel, and then pry it out.
mzahorik	-- 09-12-2018 @ 11:20 AM
	I have an idea for a puller and want to try it. If that does not work, I'll try your method. I want to practice on the bushings in the spring, prior to trying it on the wishbone. I'm sure they will come out. I'm also thinking about how the new bushing will go in. Thanks Mike.
mzahorik	-- 09-12-2018 @ 1:53 PM
	Well..... I've been working on and off all day. I finally got the passenger side bushing out. My home made press works, but I'm not strong enough anyhow to turn the press screw. I tried the impact wrench but it would just strip the threads and I had to start over. I could only move the bushing about 1/16" at a time and then I'd wack it some and do it over again. Anyway I had enough for today. Maybe I can get the other bushing out tomorrow. I am concerned about installation of the new bushings. I'll something better than what I have. Thanks for the help Mike
kubes40	-- 09-12-2018 @ 4:39 PM
	The new bushings will crush if you don't use the proper tool to install them. You may read of many guys that grind down the outer sh*ll of the new pins to install them. Quite counter productive to do so. If they are not installed with the interference fit, they won't work to rebound the spring. that is exactly why worn out pins are replaced - to get the spring to rebound as designed. I'm here to help ya if needed. I have a drawing for the bushing you'll need (at minimum) to press the new bushing in. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
trjford8	-- 09-12-2018 @ 4:42 PM
	If you are not concerned with originality you can purchase the shackle kits with the Teflon bushings for your car. Much easier to install and will last a long time. They are much more durable than the ones with rubber bushings.You can find them on e-Bay for about $20-$25 a set.
40cpe	-- 09-12-2018 @ 6:28 PM
	I've never had the any of the teflon/plastic/polyurethane, etc, bushings that didn't squeak or creak. I replaced them with impregnated bronze flanged bushings of the appropriate size. They are available from Motion Industries, among others.
mzahorik	-- 09-13-2018 @ 9:19 AM
	Gentlemen, thanks for the responses. This morning, I toke the time to improve my puller. I made it tougher so that I could use the impact wrench. This worked a lot better than before. I still was not easy and took maybe 1/2 hour, but the driver side bushing came out. Maybe the passenger side was just an SOB. Anyway, now I want to clean up the suspension a little while I wait for the new spring and other parts. I also want to make or find a tool to insert the new bushings. My puller uses a flat 3/4" round end that pushes against the bushing. This seemed to damage the bushing end a little when pulling it out of the wishbone. I guess that the insertion tool would allow the bolt to fit into it while pushing on bushing itself. The bushing end seems to be round instead of flat. So should the pusher have that shape also? Probably would be better. Does anyone know where I could get the KRW tool V170? Last item. When I ordered the new bushings (original type) I tried to order new axle bumpers, but the vendor said they are not available anymore and that the NOS ones that were being sold were crumbing from age. There must be some replacements for these. Any ideas? Thanks Mike
mzahorik	-- 09-13-2018 @ 12:06 PM
	Geezzz...... I started to clean the mud, dirt and old grease from the front suspension area and found that some prior owner butchered the front cros member, in the area where the square bolt of the front spring centers the spring. I can not imagine why anyone would cut up this spot. I suppose that I can fashion a 1/8" plate with a square hole, to fit in this area and weld it in place. What do you think? Mike
kubes40	-- 09-13-2018 @ 1:25 PM
	That may have been a crack. The frames were weak at this point although by '37 this didn't happen often. IF you decide to repair this by welding a plate in, I'd use 1/4"steel and eliminate the very top leaf of your spring assembly. That's assuming you are going to weld this plate to the bottom of the cross member. Ideally, I believe it best to replace the cross member. However, that's obviously a lot more work. By all means, at the very minimum, weld in the plate as you suggest. That spring MUST be centered and stabilized at that point. Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 9-13-18 @ 1:26 PM
mzahorik	-- 09-13-2018 @ 1:40 PM
	Looking closely at the hole, most of it appears to have been cut with a hack saw type blade. There is maybe an inch or two that is jagged, as if broken. I figured that the guy just got tired and broke the last bit off. There is no evidence of any cracks in the sides of the cross member, but will make a very close inspection to be sure. I looked at what it would take to replace the cross member. A dozen or so rivets, but I think the engine needs to be out. I'll keep my eyes open for a replacement and then maybe when I redo the engine at some future date, I'll replace the cross member. In the mean time I'll make a 2x8 plate with slight bends at each end. Then weld it in place. I found a piece of 3/16" x 2 in the garage and will use that. The cross member is not any thicker. My new spring has not arrived. Does anyone know the size of the square centering hole for the spring? I may not have to remove the top leaf. The spring u-bolts are long. The ends of the bolts were sticking out of the nuts by 1/2" on the old 12 plus and extra leaf spring. We'll see, first I have to make the plate and weld it in. Thanks for the help, Mike
mzahorik	-- 09-15-2018 @ 1:53 PM
	My replacement front spring showed up in the mail today. Looks like a good used job. It is a little dirty, so I decided to take it apart to clean and lube it. I found the centering bolt to be bent. I'll have to find another one. There is not a lot of wear on the leafs. I am thinking after I get the leaves clean I'll paint them with some graphite lube paint for better slip. One question. My rear spring center bolt has a zerk on it, I suspect will lube the leaves? This replacement front spring has a center bolt with a nut that could take a zerk, but the bolt is solid. So to lube the leaves it would mean a hollow center bolt. It is pretty thin to begin with, looks line 1/4x28. I think I'll stick with a solid bolt and just take the spring apart to lube it. Mike
40cpe	-- 09-15-2018 @ 2:30 PM
	Knowledge from the experts is that there was a special spring grease for the center bolt greasing. Chassis grease hardens in the grooves and stops it up, so you are just as well off not to grease it with chassis grease.
ford38v8	-- 09-15-2018 @ 2:32 PM
	Coming in late to this thread... The center lube zerk idea may have worked back then, but with worn springs and unobtainable original lube, they are only for show. Best to use fifth wheel lube, available at truck supply houses. This stuff holds up better than any other lube for the purpose. when cleaning the leaves, be sure to remove the ridges where shorter leaves wear on longer leaves. The lube is messy, but must be put into the leaves during assembly. Alan
mzahorik	-- 09-15-2018 @ 2:44 PM
	Alan, I generally grind off and fill any marks on leaves, but this spring is so nice there are no marks. In fact there is evidence of original lube between the leaves. Can't figure why the center bolt was bent. Mike
kubes40	-- 09-15-2018 @ 3:20 PM
	I agree with Alan - use a good quality fifth wheel grease. The axle bumpers are usually available through Carpenter and Drake. The center bolt is solid as it should be. That nut has a groove in it that in theory allowed the lubricant to get to the individual leaves. In reality, I don't believe it worked very well as designed. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
mzahorik	-- 09-15-2018 @ 3:53 PM
	The center bolt is actually a 5/16x24 bolt. Looking at the holes in the leaf, they are not round, but rather oval shaped, but not from wear. Maybe they were punched with an odd shaped punch? A 3/8" bolt almost fits, whereas the 5/16" bolt is sloopy. Also, someone must have done a hardness test on one leaf. Seems odd. Mike
mzahorik	-- 09-17-2018 @ 9:54 AM
	Today, I pulled the spring apart and cleaned the leaves. Then I applued a graphite paint called E-Z Slide. I get this stuff at Tractor Supply. I've used it on a lot of other leaf springs with good results. I do put a thicker coat of this stuff on the tip of the leaves, becuase this is where the movement is the greatest. I also opened up the center bolt hole so that I can use a 3/8 bolt instead of the 5/16 bolt. The 3/8 bolt almost fit so it only took a little opening to get the needed clearance. Hope fully tomorrow I can re assemble the spring and then get back to repairing the crossmember and then re installing the spring.
kubes40	-- 09-17-2018 @ 1:42 PM
	I hate to say it, but I'd never install that spring on any of my projects. My gut tells me it is not NOS. Why go to all of the effort to install a used and obviously worn spring? Mike "Kube" Kubarth
mzahorik	-- 09-18-2018 @ 9:48 AM
	Today, I assembled the new spring with a new center bolt and clip bolts. I made a pusher to install the bushings and it worked very well on the spring. Next I want to see how it will work on the wishbone, but it's raining and I don't want to lay in the wet. That will have to wait. I measured the spring arch and this new spring has nearly 3 inches more of arch than the old spring. So I expect a higher ride height in the front. The new spring is getting a coat of paint. Maybe tomorrow the weather will be better. Mike
mzahorik	-- 09-19-2018 @ 8:47 AM
	Today, I finished my patch plate for the hacked up cross member. I got a nice tight fit and marked up everything to get the center bolt hole centered on the car. Then it was spot welded and the center rechecked prior to finish welding it in place. Looks good to me. I also tried out my bushing pusher on the wishbone. All looked good until the last 1/4". The bushing was moving into the wishbone with some resistance, but apparently a little to much resistance. The last push ballooned the bushing end and it was ruined. I had the wishbone clean and lubed, but.... I suppose that next I'll have to do some closer inspection and measuring. Maybe the interference fit is a little on the heavy side? I think that I can improve on my pusher a little also. I'll turn the adaptor so that it covers 1/4" of the end of the bushing so that ballooning stress is covered. Supposed to rain some more, so not sure how much more I can do. Here is a picture of my ride, she's a driver. Mike
MG	-- 09-19-2018 @ 10:36 AM
	Mike, That's a very nice straight car and worth all of your efforts to preserve. You seem to be very capable....
mzahorik	-- 09-19-2018 @ 10:50 AM
	MG, thank you. I purchased this car maybe 15 years ago as a retirement project. I've been retired nearly 10 years now and this year is the first where I have done more than just start and move it. I've been horsing around with cars since the first days of high school. My dad bought me a 1936 Ford wreck. My best friend and I toke that car apart cleaned everything to with in an inch of it's life and reassembled it. The only new items we installed were gaskets we made from cardboard. We learned a lot from that car and eventually we dismantled it and piece by piece it went to the junk yard. Dozens of cars later, here I am. I am not an expert on anything, but I know a little about a lot, thanks to the adventures with these cars. It's fun and even my wife likes it, because it keeps me home in the garage. Mike
MG	-- 09-19-2018 @ 11:16 AM
	Mike - Up until October of last year I had a '37 Fordor that I owned since 1992. It was one of three old Fords I owned at that time. I too enjoyed working on it but with the back problems/pains I have I decided it was time to let it go. I really miss that car. A guy from Minnesota bought it and I'm pleased that he strives to preserve it as well. I have one car left of the three, a '34 that I can't get up the intestinal fortitude to part with. Attached is a picture of the '37 I had....
mzahorik	-- 09-19-2018 @ 11:39 AM
	Beautiful car! Yours is a deluxe, whereas mine is a standard, But I like the lines and the styling, that is why I bought it. I don't know exactly what I will do with my car right now, but since I still can get around pretty well, it will get some attention. I understand about getting older. Seems if it doesn't hurt, it most likely doesn't work (personal body parts). What I like about retirement is that there is no pace set and I do what I like. Thanks for sharing the picture, Mike.
mzahorik	-- 09-20-2018 @ 10:17 AM
	It's raining again! Everything is wet. So I'll take some time to machine a new bushing pusher. I also made some measurements. The barrel of the new bushing that I have measures 0.754". Usually an interference fit is around 0.0015" per inch of diameter. That should make the barrel a little over 0.751". Could my bushings be too big? Or are they expected to crush some when installed. I measured the wishbone hole and both are very close to 0.750". Nay thoughts? Mike
kubes40	-- 09-20-2018 @ 11:17 AM
	factory bushings were supposed to be .003" and .005" oversize. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
mzahorik	-- 09-20-2018 @ 11:19 AM
	OK, so they are expected to crush a little. Thanks, Mike
mzahorik	-- 09-23-2018 @ 1:26 PM
	Today, I finished up installing my new front spring. My new pusher tool did a pretty good job installing the wishbone bushings. I still had trouble with the last 1/16" or so. When the bushing is almost all the way in, it get stubborn and the bushing body gets damaged enough so that it will not move anymore. But, everything seems to be working OK. But..... the new spring points out how bad my front shocks are. Suppose that I'll have to do something about them also. There never seems to be an end to my projects. Thanks for all the help. Mike

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