| wrosenkrans | -- 11-24-2017 @ 12:52 PM |
|
Our 1942 Tudor (V8 Times Cover Car this month actually) has developed a starting problem. Car is totally stock, 6v electrical except for a battery disconnect switch at the - pole. We had her at an event a couple weeks ago to and from which she ran beautifully, although part of the drive home was in the rain. The next day she started fine when I took her out to for a wash and put her back in. Then a couple days ago (she'd sat for about 2 weeks) the gauges were slow to come on when the switch was thrown and pushing the starter button elicited a click then nothing. The car went completely dead, no lights, horn, etc. I pulled the battery and checked it out. Battery was 3yrs old, showed about 3 volts, was very slow to charge and wouldn't hold a charge dropping from 100% charge to less than 50% overnight. So, picked up a new battery from NAPA today, installed it, double checked all the connections, and threw the ignition switch. Everything came on normally, gauges, lights, horn, but when I pushed the starter button again there was a click then nothing. I'm pretty good at troubleshooting a Model T or Model A, but the V8 still mystifies me a bit. I'm guessing the click is a starter solenoid? Bad starter? Dead short somewhere when the starter is activated? What should I do next? Wayne & Barb '42 Super De Luxe Tudor
|
|
| supereal | -- 11-24-2017 @ 1:23 PM |
|
Sounds like a poor connection somewhere between the battery and the solenoid, perhaps your battery disconnect switch. You can troubleshoot by placing the leads of a voltmeter across the ends of each circuit, such as the battery pole and the solenoid. Observe the meter set on the appropriate scale when the button is pushed. Any reading you get is the loss in that leg of the circuit. Voltmeters are available in places like Walmart for very low prices. I carry an analog meter in my "road kit", where it comes in vary handy.
|
|
| 42guy | -- 11-24-2017 @ 3:10 PM |
|
I didn't have good luck with batteries from NAPA. I now use Interstate and they last along time. Keep it on trickle charge when not run.
|
|
| cliftford | -- 11-24-2017 @ 3:47 PM |
|
Bad starter is a possibility. Also check the ground connections between the positive post and chassis and between the chassis and engine. These need to be squeaky clean to carry the high amperage that the starter draws. Another possibility is a bad solenoid, though less likely. This message was edited by cliftford on 11-24-17 @ 3:51 PM
|
|
| FrankM-RG5 | -- 11-26-2017 @ 6:00 AM |
|
Make sure you can turn the motor, easiest done by rocking var in gear. You may have jammed up the starter drive with the first low voltage start.
|
|
| wrosenkrans | -- 11-27-2017 @ 10:27 AM |
|
Update – still no joy… So, did some checks today with the voltmeter: Positive lead to positive (ground) pole, negative lead to: Battery negative pole – 6.3 v Battery disconnect switch open – 0 v Battery disconnect switch closed – 6.3 v Right side of solenoid – 6.3 v Left side of solenoid – 0 v Left side of solenoid with bottom button pushed – 0 v, and no cranking Then rocked the car in 2nd gear and reverse Threw ignition switch – all gauges reacted, lights on, horn blew Pushed starter button – one loud, one soft click, then lights dimmed out. Gauges slowly came back up. Rechecked circuit with voltmeter – same results as above. Don’t have jumper wire to jump the solenoid, but shouldn’t the button on the bottom do the same thing? Would the fact that it wouldn’t crank off the solenoid button imply the solenoid is bad? Should I use some old battery cable to make a jumper? I’ve not been able to find a labeled diagram of the engine compartment, I’m assuming the starter is at the back of the engine and underneath where I can see the cable from the left side of the solenoid disappearing? One other thing – I’m working in a very narrow garage which limits what I can get to without substantial gymnastics. Wayne & Barb '42 Super De Luxe Tudor
|
|
| MG | -- 11-27-2017 @ 11:25 AM |
|
Lift the cable (open it) from the solenoid to the starter motor and repeat the test you made above looking to see if the lights horn and gauges react the same way....
|
|
| wrosenkrans | -- 11-28-2017 @ 10:31 AM |
|
Update 2 - still no joy Made a battery jumper from an old battery cable and a standard jumper from some old connectors Did the same checks I did yesterday, same results. Jumped the center pole on the solenoid to a good ground - sparks and heard the solenoid click. Jumped the two side poles on the solenoid with the battery jumper – no sparks, no cranking. Watched the voltage drop from 6.3 v to 3.2 v when pressing the solenoid button. Couldn’t get a wrench on the left side pole to remove the wire to check voltage drop with starter disconnected. Checked wires going from the starter button, no obvious problem. Looking like a bad starter? Wayne & Barb '42 Super De Luxe Tudor
|
|
| FrankM-RG5 | -- 11-28-2017 @ 10:32 AM |
|
Until the starter spins it is a dead short. That is probably why you still see 0 volts when you hit the switch. See what the voltage does on the battery side of the solenoid when you hit the button.
|
|
| TomO | -- 11-28-2017 @ 10:39 AM |
|
FrankM asked you to check to see if you could turn over the motor. You need to do this to determine if the starter is locked up. Put the car in 3rd gear and try to push it backward, you may only be able to rock it. Rock it until the motor turns. If you backed the car into the garage, put the transmission in reverse and try to rock the car while watching the fan, keep rocking it until the fan shows that the motor is turning. Tom
|
|
| wrosenkrans | -- 11-28-2017 @ 12:04 PM |
|
I actually did try to rock the car in 3rd and in reverse. Will try again. Wayne & Barb '42 Super De Luxe Tudor
|
|
| wrosenkrans | -- 11-28-2017 @ 12:41 PM |
|
Battery voltage drops from 6.3 v to 3.4 v on the battery side of the solenoid. I had tried rocking it in gear before, but just tried again in 3rd gear really giving it a shove. Watching the belts, I can't say I saw the engine move, but when I tried it there did seem to be a different noise. Not a click but more of a brief motor turning (unless it was wishful thinking). So tried rocking some more but couldn't get it to repeat. I do have the engine hand crank bar. Would it be worth seeing if I can turn it by hand? Wayne & Barb '42 Super De Luxe Tudor
|
|
| 4dFordSC | -- 11-28-2017 @ 1:32 PM |
|
Try banging on the starter with a hammer--don't worry, you can't hurt it.
|
|
| TomO | -- 11-29-2017 @ 9:01 AM |
|
Using the hand crank to try to turn over the engine would work. I don't usually recommend it as when I tried it on my 40 Merc., I broke the center bar of the grill and damaged the radiator center piece. I could not hold the long extension straight enough to prevent the damage. When the starter is stuck and you move the engine enough to free it, you usually hear a big bang. Can you get a helper to watch the engine while you try to push the car? The 3.4 V you see at the battery, means the battery is not at full charge and the starter is requiring more current than the battery can supply. Your starter is most likely stuck. Rocking the car until the engine turns or removing the starter can free it up. Make sure that you have the bracket that goes from the starter bolt head to the oil pan bolt. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 11-29-17 @ 9:07 AM
|
|
| wrosenkrans | -- 11-29-2017 @ 10:37 AM |
|
Update – Success!!! Eleanor is back on the road. So - with my wife and daughter-in-law helping, we rocked the heck out her until suddenly I saw the engine pulleys move, then rocked some more to make sure I wasn’t seeing things. No sound, just started to move. Threw the ignition switch and she started right up like her old self. Went for a nice long ride to make her and me feel better. Current theory on what went wrong based on forum comments is that trying to start with the weak battery caused the Bendix to jam, and my previous attempts at rocking to disengage weren’t forceful enough leading me to suspect other things. I did get rid of a suspect battery and replaced it with one that actually is a better fit in the tray and tightened up all the connections, plus learning more about Early V8’s. Anyway, many thanks to all who offered helpful suggestions leading to a good result. This is what the hobby is all about. Wayne & Barb '42 Super De Luxe Tudor
|
|
| TomO | -- 11-30-2017 @ 6:49 AM |
|
Wayne, check to see that the bracket that goes from the starter to the oil pan is in place. If it is missing, you could have this problem again almost any time. Tom
|
|
| len47merc | -- 11-30-2017 @ 12:18 PM |
|
Adding to TomO for clarity, if you have never seen the bracket or are not aware of where it is located, it is a small, angled piece of painted-black steel that holds the FRONT of the starter up and secures it to the block/oil pan. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 11-30-17 @ 12:20 PM
|
|
| MG | -- 11-30-2017 @ 12:40 PM |
|
Here's a picture of one > https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mercury_early/starter-attaching-bracket-to-oil-pan-at-rear-of-oil-pan-ford-v8-and-6-cylinder-except-60-hp.html
|
|
| Sneezer | -- 11-30-2017 @ 2:16 PM |
|
I bought one of these from Mac's and it absolutely did not fit
|
|
| MG | -- 11-30-2017 @ 2:31 PM |
|
That's because it was made for a Ford, not a VW.... :o)
|
|
| EFV-8 Club Forum : | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum |
| Topic: | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=11416 |