| DJACK | -- 04-20-2010 @ 3:19 PM |
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WHAT IS THE PROPER WAY TO TIME A 1939 V8 85 HP? THANKS DENNIS
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-20-2010 @ 7:18 PM |
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Dennis, A '39 ford is timed by installing a properly set up distributor. There is only one way to install it without damage, as the key in the cam is offset to accept the distributor only one way. On the body of the distributor, you'll find a screw that when loosened, will allow fine tuning of up to about 2º + or -, but should normally be set right on zero. Almost never would this screw be adjusted in use. The set-up of a distributor can be done on a bench with minimal tools, but for optimal results, is best left to the operator of a Distributor Machine, something modern day mechanics know nothing about. Find a shop with a Sun machine having a Ford adapter, or send your distributor to Skip Haney in Florida, or any of the many other qualified Ford mechanics who do this job. Alan
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| 37 Coupe | -- 04-21-2010 @ 4:56 AM |
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A good coil and distributor guy to send it to for rebuild and setup is John Shelor 105 Pershing Ave Radford ,Va 24141.He is an eighty some yeard old retired electrical engineer that has written a couple distributor and coil articles in past V8 Times,but he does not seem to get the fanfare of the more touted ones.
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| supereal | -- 04-21-2010 @ 10:25 AM |
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One of the main advantages of setting up the Ford distributor on a Sun machine is being able to see the firing pattern on the strobe wheel. We are seeing lots of inferior point sets today that have poor springs and bad pivots, which are visible on the machine. Same is true of worn bushings and/or distributor shafts, a common problem that is often overlooked.
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| 39 Ken | -- 04-21-2010 @ 1:26 PM |
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Bob, When you find these inferior points sets, what are you doing to rectify the problem? Are you repairing the point sets or do you scrounge thru all the new sets to come up with a good set? Ken
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| MTLott | -- 04-21-2010 @ 2:56 PM |
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Do you guys ever consider that some of the folks that ask these tune-up questions are in this as a hobby? ... and, they would like to tear into a distributor and learn more about it? (Rather than send it off to Skip Haney ... ?) First, YES! A strobe machine is the best way to uncover any problems with a flathead distributor. But, how many millions upon millions upon millions of tune-ups have been done on flatheads without a Sun machine? Stop telling these guys that they are going to end up in a ditch unless they have their distributors done by "Skip." It simply is not a fair and balanced answer. Henry Ford designed the early flathead distributor to be worked on by knuckleheads. Read the patent. Incidentally, a K R Wilson timing fixture just sold on eBay ... not everyone agrees with you. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/K-R-Wilson-Flat-Head-Ford-Distributer-Timing-Fixture_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4aa042809cQQitemZ320516292764QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_500wt_975 I also read with disappointment the thread on "Overcharging condition ... " The very same guys who insist that everyone MUST have their distributors set on a Sun machine give instructions on setting the third brush on the generator for use with a cut-out. When good information is posted here, why is it disregarded? I told you before ... you like to give advice, but you don't like taking it. http://www.funprojects.com/products/10505v.cfm (You guys ever hear the story about the fellow with hemorrhoids who swallowed the suppositories ... because he didn't need anyone to tell him anything ... ?) This message was edited by MTLott on 4-21-10 @ 2:59 PM
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| TomO | -- 04-22-2010 @ 9:22 AM |
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MTlott, I feel that I should give the best advice that I can. I have set points on a distributor machine and on a timing fixture as well as using the ruler method. They all will get an engine running if the parts are good. The timing fixture or the ruler method do not check the advance mechanism, the vacuum brake setting or the operating condition of the points. The reason I tell someone to send their distributor in and have it set on a distributor machine is the current selection of replacement parts are of poor quality. As Super said in his post, they have bad pivots and springs that do not hold their tension. Would you rather we tell him to get a timing fixture or use the ruler method because these cars are easy to fix. If we do this, then what do we tell him when he drives the car for a few miles and it becomes impossible to start or misses and cuts out above 35 mph because the point spring has no tension or the pivot binds or there is a short in the points grounding the operating contact? I would rather have the man enjoy driving his car instead of working on it every time he drove it. Tom
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| Norm | -- 04-22-2010 @ 10:58 AM |
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I disagree with the notion that pre-1949 distributors were designed to be repaired/worked on by any knucklehead. When these cars were in general use the distributors were on an "exchange" program with certified Ford Rebuilders (as were engines, if you chose to). Even Ford garages sent them in for exchange and didn't repair them themselves. I worked for a Ford garage in the 50's. Later on, we still ran distributors on a "Sun" machine in the shop so we could check dwell, the vaccuum advance and other diagnostics. I'm sure that some shade-tree mechanics did the old distributors on their own, but it certainly was not common. I ran with a bunch of V-8 motor heads at the time and none of us imagined doing it ourselves. Change an engine - sure. Rebuild a distributor - no way. Norm
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| 37 Coupe | -- 04-22-2010 @ 12:58 PM |
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I also agree to disagree. I am a retired machinist of 42 years,I rebuilt my engine but had to send out for machine work,I rebuilt my own transmission,steering box and rebuilt a Columbia axle for my 37 Ford,I cannot paint worth a darn so a friend took care of that for me. However I have always had an old Ford garage mechanic/friend that had the setup equipment for a Ford distributor and he always took care of that for me. With his retirement and passing, I found another who does this and glad I did as I did not know all about putting a 37-41 Ford type helmet distributor on a 59AB engine and neither does a lot of the more famous setup men. The man I mentioned in my first post informed me that the #78 or 68 distributor I was using and setup again by one more famous was not the good match I needed,he informed me the 41 although looking the same as others was the one to use identified by the 11A on end shaft,more advance was used in 41 and same for the 59AB,it runs like a rabbit now. He also uses his own point plate system and does not use Ford Flathead points as he started to run out of Ford stock,he refuses to use China reproes or anything but Ford,he uses a Ford Y block point I beleive and a Pinto 4 cylinder type together,claims they are both stronger then even original Ford Flathead points. I never would have learned this if I was still trying to setup myself.
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| supereal | -- 04-22-2010 @ 2:11 PM |
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Yes, we understand that most, if not all, of our Club members are hobbyists, and those of us who offer suggestions do our best to provide the benefit of experience even as we are handicapped by not having the component in question before us. If our responses annoy you, Mr. Lott, it is difficult to understand why you spend any time critiquing them instead of offering some more constructive dialog, as you claim to have more and better answers. No one says anyone HAS to do anything.
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| supereal | -- 04-22-2010 @ 2:14 PM |
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Ken: We keep a number of point sets on hand that have been carefully inspected for quality. Currently, about half or more of the points sent to us with distributors to be repaired are rejected. I see, in Bob Drake's newest catalog, that they are offering better point sets. Given Drake's reputation for quality, I would expect that to be true.
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| MTLott | -- 04-22-2010 @ 2:28 PM |
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You're right. I'm "wrong" ... and in the wrong place. (Let me add to my response. Had a very busy weekend up until now.) And please, don't bother responding to this. Just think about it. You all seem to agree that nobody should attempt to set up a distributor. That only a Skip Haney is capable. Norm wrote, "... and none of us imagined doing it ourselves. Change an engine - sure. Rebuild a distributor - no way." That is sad. Sad for the hobby, and sad that the message is "DON'T TRY." Who is going to be the next "Skip Haney?" Or is the hobby destined to be forced over to billet, electronic ignitions ... because of the "best advice" from The Early Ford V-8 Club experts is the bogey man lives inside the distributor. Supereal wrote, "If our responses annoy you, Mr. Lott, it is difficult to understand why you spend any time critiquing them instead of offering some more constructive dialog, as you claim to have more and better answers." Partner, I beat my head against the wall with my posts about diaphragm clutches. You were not aware they have been in use in cars almost exclusively for the past 40 years ... "constructive dialog?" I went to extra effort to post links on the subject. You never acknowledged any appreciation for the information. I'm gone from here. Incidentally, I have four Sun Distributor Testers and am rebuilding a fifth. I will not be the next Skip Haney, BUT I may be the guy who encourages his replacement to not be scared to death of working on a flathead distributor. If I had encountered this forum before taking a set of feeler gauges to a distributor, I never would have learned anything about them. Some of you have immense TECHNICAL knowledge and TECHNICAL experience. That does not mean you are giving the BEST advice. Now re-read my original post that began, "Do you guys ever consider that some of the folks that ask these tune-up questions are in this as a hobby?" "... some more constructive dialog?" Yep, that's a great idea. How do you do that with people that already know it all? Just like diaphragm clutches and the V8-60 (remember, "I'm not sure why you want to spend time and money on a 60. That engine is, for all practical purposes, obsolete."), ... "constructive dialog." This message was edited by MTLott on 4-25-10 @ 5:41 AM
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| parrish | -- 05-08-2010 @ 10:30 PM |
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The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230
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| ford38v8 | -- 05-08-2010 @ 10:59 PM |
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Parrish, I think you are a quick study. You may also teach some of us a lesson or three. Alan
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| Stroker | -- 05-09-2010 @ 7:55 AM |
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AMEN
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| Norm | -- 05-09-2010 @ 8:25 AM |
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When I was a kid I took a lot of clocks apart. That didn't make me a clock expert. Norm
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| silverchief | -- 05-09-2010 @ 2:38 PM |
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If I had all the money and headaches Supereal, and Tom0, have saved me using their advice I could buy a case of NOS distributors. I'm happy to dance with the guys what brung me.
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| deuce_roadster | -- 05-09-2010 @ 3:39 PM |
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The original question was what is the "proper" way to time the flathead. I would think this means "best" way to do it. Sure, MLott could rebuild a helmet distrib on the side of the road in the night with a swiss army knife and get it running but he seems to not understand the original question. Nobody said that using a Sun machine was the ONLY way to do it, but it is the BEST way. People like Mlott will argue with anyone about anything and I would say the best thing to do is just ignore him and hopefully he will go away. The vast majority of the suggestions here are very good. We don't need someone on a negative soapbox.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 05-10-2010 @ 8:57 AM |
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MTLOT YES You can install points and gap them in a early FORD Distributer and have it running with no problems, back in the days, FORD had rebuilt ones on the shelf ready to go, and when they were slow in the shop would rebuild them, its not only setting the points, with a HEYER,SUN, or K R WILSON,DIST TESTER you also have to see if it advances the timing.this is not possible in your hands, and how the bushing are and the springs,tension, etc etc etc, check the dwell and to see if the cam is worn down etc I have installed points in a early dist and had no problems,but I think I got lucky, when you send the distributer to a rebuilder, you should send the coil also,and have it tested to make sure it passes the heat test,most of them fail this test, this DISTRIBUTER for the EARLY FORD are a complex unit, that need special testers with gauges and meters,to see if they are working correctly I heard a GERMAN engineeer that worked for FORD,That was the one who designed it, and remember it was used for 16 years, and more, it is a excellant unit when done right, but not done right can be a frustrating. I think the ADVICE given here is to assist the novice is his QUESTIONS,and advice was given in a honest way.and the best way to go so they do not have more problems leading them in the RIGHT DIRECTION, sure we could tell them to install points and go with it, what happens when they get stuck on the road ? you seem very critrical on the advice given here, WHY DO YOU THINK FORD had SPECIAL Equipment to service these distributers ? we are just trying to help, Skip Haney is only one out of many that rebuild the distributer and coils,plus more... did you ever install a set of points in a early FORD distributer ? this something you do not want to do on the road, most people have a hard time just removing and installing one, KEEP ON TRUCKIN,,!!!!!! 37RAGTOPMAN
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