Topic: When is an Early Ford V8 not acceptable?

1934 Ford	-- 10-12-2017 @ 3:02 PM
	When is an Early Ford V8 not an early Ford that is acceptable? The usual question of accepting non “As they left the factory cars”, plays on my mind every time we ask those who run for EFV8C offices to take a position on newer or modified Fords. I enjoy all old cars and hate to see someone excluded due to personal tastes. Examples that stick in my craw: After completing the 1984 & 1987 editions of the Interstate Batteries Great American Race in a bone stock 1934 Ford Deluxe Tudor, we took it to a show along with another stock 34 Ford Standard Tudor. We left all the Great Race signage on the raced car thinking folks would like to see what the 4400 miles from Disneyland to Disney World looked like on the car. We were told it could not be registered or shown because of the advertising on the number shield and stickers on the car from contingency sponsors. They (Local AACA Region) refused to register the race car, so we parked both cars across the street and had our own show. They lost two registration fees and our respect , for non judged cars that would have added to their Show and to their profits. We know a guy who did a factory looking installation of a 60 HP Ford V8 engine in his 1931 Model A Roadster Pickup. You would have thought he shot the Pope. I would hope he would be welcome anywhere as well as the guy with a restored 1948 Willy’s Jeepster with a 1948 Ford Flathead V8 engine. What about the guy with a pristine 1932 Ford Roadster with a stock looking 1949 Flathead engine? It’s still a Early Ford V8 to me. Or the Resto-Mod that looks so good and stock that people have to ask for the hood to be opened to discover there is something other than the original engine in it? Some of those cars wouldn’t make it to a meet if they had to travel solely with original parts. I would like to see the regular classes plus a “Modified Section”. The 32 Roadster with the wrong engine is still a 1932 Ford to me, even if it had a Chevy V8 under the hood. ( I know a guy in Florida who drove his 327 Chevy powered 32 Ford Roadster to the L.A. Roadster Show 6 times , from Florida and it still looks like a 32 Ford Roadster! Hood and fenders, bumpers and wire wheels. Why not welcome him and his Ford too? This could be our key to increased membership. Remember car guys usually have more than one car and interests in the stock ones could be encouraged. I have both! You probably do too. 1934 Ford's since 1972
nelsb01	-- 10-12-2017 @ 4:10 PM
	My first question to you would be: When was the last Early Ford V-8 Club National Meet you attended? All your questions have answers. The EFV-8C has as you say: As they left the factory (Concourse class) The vehicles: 1932 with a 1949 flathead (Touring A) Vehicles that members just want to enjoy (Touring) Vehicles with modified drive trains, paint, interiors (Display Class) As for the AACA.........well, I am not a member, so I can not address their issues. All these classes have been welcomed at Early Ford V-8 Club National Meets for quite a while. I am sure others will add to this -- but I believe we welcome all 1932-1953 (1954 Canadian) Ford Motor Company Vehicles. As for driving them across country, a very large group drove from the East coast to Tahoe in 2013. And just last month a 1949 Ford drove from Mass to Oregon for the 2017 Western Meet. PS- we have even had a 9N tractor with the V-8 conversion show up and be on the Concourse. This message was edited by nelsb01 on 10-12-17 @ 4:15 PM
3w2	-- 10-12-2017 @ 5:23 PM
	I find it interesting that personal taste seems in the minds of some to be a one-way street where one size fits all and anything goes or at least should. There are however other versions of personal taste that exclude the very things that they advocate. Evidently those other points of view aren't worth considering as being possibly equally legitimate. Those who believe that Chevrolet-powered Fords are still Fords, as an extreme example, and should form part of a wave of new members when the doors are thrown open seem to ignore that there exists a hard core of Club members who have bought into the Club's current mandate. The real unanswered and seemingly not even considered question is how many of that core will walk away when that mandate is abandoned or watered down to the point of being a joke. It is not zero. The Early Ford V8 Club of America has a written mandate, as do most other marque auto clubs. If you don't like the ground rules of this club either work to change them or move on to another club with a better fit to your personal tastes remembering that there will always be those with different personal tastes.
kubes40	-- 10-12-2017 @ 6:01 PM
	3W2, I feel you've made a very valid point. I have noticed this club slipping beyond it's mandate in recent years. Allowing electric fuel pumps on concourse judged cars w/o a standard point deduction is just one small example. Hey, there is a touring class boys... if you can;t get your car to run correctly with a proper pump, perhaps "touring" is a better fit for you. While I enjoy many facets of the car hobby, open the doors to hot rods, etc., and I for one am "outta here". There are clubs to fit everyone's tastes. This club, as I recall, was and is (supposed to be) about "factory cars". Mike "Kube" Kubarth
TonyM	-- 10-13-2017 @ 9:24 AM
	I am an historian, and it was the focus on "stock" Fords and the "preservation" aspect of this club that influenced me to join. I joined in 2010, before I even owned an early Ford. My membership/contacts here helped in my purchase of an original, largely unmolested 1937 Ford. I am here to enjoy stock early Fords. There are plenty of Street Rod clubs out there, so the SBC crowd don't have to come here and ruin our club. If the rules are watered down and the club abandons its current mission, then I will leave the club. . . . 78-730B This message was edited by TonyM on 10-13-17 @ 9:26 AM
MG	-- 10-13-2017 @ 10:52 AM
	To paraphrase Jimmy Stewart in the movie 'Flight Of The Phoenix', he said - "Why, I could tell you that there were times when you took real pride... in just getting there." - Jimmy was referring to pilots and their flying of airplanes. This is the attitude I have when driving my factory original '34 Ford to EFV8 Club National Meets - I take real pride in just getting there.... From the Movie > Frank Towns (Jimmy Stewart) establishes himself as a jaded veteran pilot who feels more sorrow than excitement at the way flying is changing during a conversation with Lew in the cockpit; this sentiment is part of the cause of the friction between Towns and Dorfmann. Captain Towns: "A pilot is supposed to use his own judgement, don't you think? If it weren't for that... I don't know, Lew. I suppose pilots are just as good now as they ever were, but they sure don't live the way we did. Why, I could tell you that there were times when you took real pride... in just getting there. Flying used to be fun, it really did, Lew... it used to be fun." This message was edited by MG on 10-13-17 @ 11:27 AM
40cpe	-- 10-13-2017 @ 11:10 AM
	It seems as if the club has already watered down the "rules" if you consider there are classes at meets that are for vehicles with some modifications. I suspect it is because the powers-that-be recognize that there are not enough hard core, non-compromising restorers to keep the doors open financially. Many of us will put hydraulic brakes, the wrong color floor mat, or a later flathead in our cars to enjoy them and keep them running. I suspect there is room here for all of us. This message was edited by 40cpe on 10-13-17 @ 11:34 AM
ford38v8	-- 10-13-2017 @ 11:30 AM
	Without descending into a discussion of how many Concourse points to deduct for this or that modification, I believe that the present separation of classes works very well, has been and continues to be monitored and refined to meet demands of the modern world. The fact that change comes slowly is reassuring, as evolution is inevitable and constructive, while revolution is destructive by definition. Alan
engine	-- 10-13-2017 @ 12:04 PM
	I for one when walking around at a car show happen to come across a Ford with a Chevy 350 in it I keep walking. I know it fits because it is a shorter block and it's a crate engine but I just don't like it. You sound like you may be running for a office in the club and you are putting out feelers to see what the response is. There's a California guy who is wanting to do just that, could that be you?
woodiewagon46	-- 10-13-2017 @ 12:11 PM
	I have no problem if someone has a car entered in the Display Class, that is what is commonly called a "resto rod". Take for example a '34 or '40 Ford with a modern V-8 that has stock fenders and hood so that no one knows that the engine isn't stock. The '34 might not have spoke wheels and have perhaps '40 wheels. They may have disc brakes and radial tires but other wise look completely stock. To me that is perfectly fine in that class. I also don't have an issue with a concourse restoration with an electric fuel pump. Say someone wants to drive their V-8 but has vapor lock issues because they have heavy traffic issues and the electric pump will cure it. If the car is restored to absolute concourse condition and the only issue is an electric pump, to me it is still perfect. As everyone on this site knows it takes a ton of money to restore a car to concourse standards. The other issue is not only the restoration cost. No one that I know, that owns a concourse car drives it. So a car trailer and tow vehicle is now needed. Not too many people that want to get into this hobby have that amount of disposable money. Don't get me wrong, if someone shows up with a chopped and channeled hot rod with a big loud motor they must not be allowed in. I think we need to encourage as many people as we can to enter our hobby. Perhaps we need to define the Display class a little further.
pauls39coupe	-- 10-13-2017 @ 5:59 PM
	The Early Ford V-8 Club "concourse division" is designed for cars which are correctly restored "as manufactured". Enter whatever you want in this division, but expect to get "dinged" points for whatever modifications you have made from stock. Some take it pretty hard when those nice Navaro heads, radial tires, and 12 volt generator bring point deductions. Henry didn't paint'em candy apple red. It may look great, but it didn't roll out of the Rouge plant like that. Your Great Race car, or mildly modified cars like it would fair best in the "touring", or in the Display class. These cars are voted on by other registered car owners using their personal preference not a judging standard. I would love to see a GAR car at the Dearborn Grand National this spring as would many others. I'd bet it would be the hit of the show. Just don't expect a Dearborn Award for restoration. The AACA, NSRA,VMCCA, etc all have their own rules for their own reasons. Their club, their rules.
trjford8	-- 10-13-2017 @ 6:59 PM
	I believe there is room for everybody in this club. As long as they pay their dues and support the original intent of the by laws. If this club operated on strictly stock Ford V-8s in this club there would not be enough people (workers) to put on meets or pay dues to pay for the expenses of the V-8 Times magazine. As someone who has been involved in putting on national meets it takes a lot of workers to make those events happen. From personal experience those workers are the ones who own restored cars, touring class cars and modified cars. There's room for all and we need to be flexible. I'm not advocating changing the rules of the founders, but if you look at the cars those guys drove, they were all modified to some degree. I've been a member since 1974 and have seen this club evolve. I recall this big fight over allowing 41-48 cars to come in and the "huge fight" over the 49-53 cars being allowed to come into the club. Then along came the "Touring Class" and the "Touring A" class and then the "Display" class. The club has evolved, gained new members, and because of these changes we have not damaged the founding premise of the club. We still have national meets with a concourse and judging. We still award trophies in the various categories established by the founders and judging standards committee. The social aspect of this club is second to none and plays just as big a role in the meets as the old Fords. It's a family oriented club and if you go to enough national meets you will wind up with friends all over the United States and the world. In addition many club members, no matter what they drive, have contributed to the Early Ford V-8 Foundation which is preserving the history of the Early Ford V-8. It's easy to see that the common goal is the preservation of old Ford V-8s and their history. One of the founding principles of this club was you did not need to own a car to belong. All you had to have was an interest in the restoration and preservation of early Ford V-8s. It's still this way today. If all you own is a new GMC pickup , but like old Ford V-8s you can still be a member. Clubs are supposed to be fun and we should keep it that way. the best thing any member can do is find a new member and bring them into the club. If each current member brought in one new member we could double the size of this club in one year. O.K. I'll get off the "soap box".
TomO	-- 10-14-2017 @ 9:53 AM
	I agree with Alan except on allowing modifications to pass without a point deduction. I was glad when the Touring Class was announced. My 40 Merc had a 49 truck engine in it and I could now drive it to meets and not have to park with the general public. Touring A allowed more modifications and allowed more members to drive their cars to the meet. The Display Class should continue. Like Engine, I don't bother to look at the Display Class and don't vote for Touring A cars, but these cars should be allowed to be displayed and their owners welcomed. They may have a nicely restored vehicle in their garage or starting a restoration. I still believe that if the car is not like it left the factory, there should be point deductions for items that are not correct. And that includes electric fuel pumps and hydraulic brakes. How can you pass an electric fuel pump one car and then deduct points for an incorrect mechanical pump on another car? They arre both incorrect. I made decisions when I restored my 40 Merc for the second time to not change some things that were incorrect. The judges took points off for these items as they should have. The car was restored enough to get a Dearborn and is now an Emeritus car. If it was judged as a 3rd place car, I would still put it on the Concourse, because I enjoy driving it to National Meets and realize that I made the choices that resulted in point deductions. Every car on the Concourse does not need to be a Dearborn winner. The owner of a 3rd place car is just as proud of his vehicle and enjoys it as much and maybe more than the trailer queen owner. Woodiewagon46, there are many cars driven to National Meets that are in the Concourse division. Not all of them have electric fuel pumps. My Merc was driven on local tours and to the the National Meets where it received the Dearborn Awards and I continue to drive it on local tours. I do not have an electric fuel pump and the best thing I did for solving "vapor lock" problems was eliminate the one that was on the car. It was causing most of my problems. Tom
ford38v8	-- 10-14-2017 @ 11:13 AM
	Tom, As far as I know, there is only one modification that has been identified by the JSC to draw no point deduction, that being the addition of seat belts, as it was considered a safety item not to be discouraged. Your point made regarding a deduction for an incorrect fuel pump but not for an electric pump is well taken, and IMHO, that principle should be applied to any comparable situation encountered on the Concourse. But this thread was not intended to discuss point deductions, but rather, to discuss where to draw the line as to what is or is not to be allowed on the field at a meet. I was at a meet once where a customized vintage Brand X was allowed in the Display area, and although there were some that would have denied entry, the general feeling among the attendees was that as long as it remained in Display, no harm no foul. I think there is a need for inclusion in this day and age more than in the past, as we all have motor oil in our blood, and this club, more so than any other club, values its friendships as much as the cars we all treasure. Alan
woodiewagon46	-- 10-14-2017 @ 3:36 PM
	I'm sure some Concourse cars are driven to national events, but at everyone I have ever attended was a sea of car trailers. I call them Dracula or Wolfman cars, they only come out in the light of day on judging day. The point I am trying to make is this. In the Sept/Oct. issue of the V-8 Times are the results of the 2017 Membership Survey, sent out by the V-8 Club. The question of "Which Age Group Describes You"? In the age group of 16-25, 0%, age group 26-35, 0% and the age group 46-55, only 7.2%. In the age group Over 65 the number is 68.8% BUT as Mike points the number of members that stated an actual age the average number is 72 years old! We need a way to attract younger members somehow. I don't have an answer, I wish I did. It's a problem we all need to address. Every year when I get the end of year report from the Model A Club it lists the numbers of Chapters that have ceased to exist and it's down right depressing.
FrankM-RG5	-- 10-22-2017 @ 8:59 AM
	From what I have read there is no perfect answer. We are trying to figure out what we can live with and maybe some need to figure out how to live with decisions the directors make. That being said, our old Fords have two histories. The first was when the cars were built and functioned as transportation. The second was when they were all used up and many loved the styles of the old Fords enough to say this is the car I want to customize. We have few members who can remember seeing these old Fords on the showroom floor but there are many who remember seeing kids at school turning them into hotrods. I think all of our members appreciate seeing a nicely restored V8 but remember the expanse of the hot rod market has made parts available that otherwise would not be. Brookville is an example. The hot rod guys have made these bodies profitable for these companies to make. Carpenter did not make the 40 coupe bodies to satisfy the restorers but they may help someone restoring a 40 Ford. As Tom said above, our club has a great membership that has a lot of fun at these national meets. This is where concourse cars get judged. If you remove all the people who brought touring vehicles then there would be no meet. I like that the club encourages members to drive their concourse vehicles, so as much as I do not feel an electric pump is needed, some swear by them so the club decided to accommodate them. It's not a perfect decision but they decided the pros outweighed the cons. If we criticize and downplay their decisions instead of promoting the reasons for them then we are destroying our club from the inside. As president of our RG I need to embrace decisions I did not vote for otherwise I am not serving my local club. While many of us are trying to preserve originality the directors are trying to preserve the club. If they fail to do that then restore it as nice as you want. No one will be there to see it.
ford38v8	-- 10-22-2017 @ 9:43 AM
	Just a clarification on Frank's post above: The Club's Directors have little to do with such matters as fuel pumps on the Concourse. They are an elected body of Representatives who may or may not have detailed knowledge of how a Ford was built or how it should be presented on the Concourse. It is the Judging Standards Committee that is empowered to make such decisions, free of politics. They are concerned with authenticity, and deviations from that course are studied and debated long and hard before their decisions are submitted for approval by the Board of Directors. Alan
FrankM-RG5	-- 10-22-2017 @ 2:26 PM
	Thanks!

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