| flatheadfan | -- 08-16-2017 @ 5:24 AM |
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Guys- I need some help on this. I know clutch chatter is a common torque tube problem but this one is one for the books. This is where I am at, the car is a '35 coupe. Over time this car has had virtually everything rebuilt or replaced. It starts readily and drives super. Now the problem ..... Recently, it developed a throw-out bearing noise. As many of you know, this is a "nasty" replacement job. Given this I decided to replace the clutch and disk along with the throwout bearing along with flywheel bearing (oil-lite). All items were purchased from Fort Wayne Clutch. Prior to installing everything I had the flywheel resurfaced and the pressure plate balanced together at a local machine shop. Balance was at "0" grams. Everything went together slick with proper torque except, I now have back-up clutch chatter that I never had before. In an effort to deal with the problem I have changed engine and trans mounts. Tighten the "steady rods," (and everything else I could). I replaced the steady rod frame bolts and adjusted the clutch pedal free play. I Still have the chatter. Approximate mileage on the new clutch assembly is about 120 miles. The really odd part of this is the chatter goes away with about five miles of driving. This is bizarre. I am not anxious to take everything apart and put it back together only to have the same thing happen again. I am fresh out of ideas and definitely open for some new thinking!. Thanks for the help Tom
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| TomO | -- 08-17-2017 @ 7:23 AM |
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The only suggestion that I have is to try changing the tension on the motor mounts. The cushions could be too hard and soften after driving the car. Or just the opposite. Tom
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| sarahcecelia | -- 08-17-2017 @ 10:28 AM |
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TomO, So your saying they (hard motor mounts) relaxed and to tighten them up right? Or would you loosen them if the mounts are a little stiff? Regards, Steve Lee This message was edited by sarahcecelia on 8-22-17 @ 8:56 PM
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| supereal | -- 08-19-2017 @ 1:36 PM |
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The "organic" material now used to face the clutch disk instead of asbestos will usually soften a bit when warmed up, and reduce shudder. Watch the drain hole at the bottom of the clutch housing for excessive oil leakage. There should be a cotter pin hanging from the hole to prevent clogging. If the pressure plate arms were not wedged before the unit was bolted to the flywheel, the pressure plate may be slightly warped, contributing to the problem. Shudder when backing up is common, in any case. The "steady rods" were tried by Ford, then abandoned when they did little, if any, to reduce shudder. I usually start in second gear on flat ground which eliminates most of the problem. Years ago, we would loosen the bell housing to engine bolts a bit, then run the engine and work the clutch. This would help if there was any "off center" between the transmission input shaft and the center line of the clutch, then the bolts were retightened.
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| flatheadfan | -- 08-19-2017 @ 5:14 PM |
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Guys - Thanks for the replies. Supereal I need some help. What did you mean by "I usually start in second gear on flat ground which eliminates most of the problem." Is this some sort of temporary solution? Thanks Tom
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| sarahcecelia | -- 08-20-2017 @ 9:01 AM |
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Tom, A lot about the '40 cars is new to me. Mine chatters when I pull away in 1st gear, unless I let the clutch out at idle and don't give it any gas until it moves a little. Is this just "the nature of the Beast? " The "Radius rods" ( from either side of the front axle to the center at the trans.) which I think are what you call "chatter rods," are tight and secure. You posted to a guy about motor mounts that are soft, or the adverse-hard, could be the problem, among others. Mine are like new and not soft at all; very new looking and firm. Is that the problem, that they may be too firm? If so, I suspect they should be loosened just a little to help the chatter. Your comments please. Regards, Steve Lee
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| TomO | -- 08-21-2017 @ 7:57 AM |
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Steve, The technique that you described is how most of us drive our cars. The radius rods from the front axle are there to help keep the front axle from twisting and changing the camber. The chatter rods are the ones that are attached to the bell housing and go back to the frame. The idea behind them was to keep the engine from moving forward when the clutch was engaged. There are many reasons for clutch chatter. The most common is the reproduction motor mount cushions allowing the transmission or motor to move. Other causes are: warped pressure plate cover, release fingers incorrectly adjusted, grease on the flywheel, clutch pressure plate surface, flywheel surface and I am sure that this list is not complete. Tom
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| Kenneth M. | -- 08-21-2017 @ 12:24 PM |
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I had clutch chatter pretty bad in my 40. I pulled the tranny and clean the flywheel and in stalled a new clutch and pressure plate. The old pressure was weak. That solve my problem with clutch chatter. Kenneth M. Stewart
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| supereal | -- 08-21-2017 @ 2:41 PM |
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Starting off in second gear when in level areas is an old trick most of us learned long ago. Engaging the clutch while increasing engine speed, when done properly, is preferable to the usual shudder. This problem has been around for decades, and many "fixes" have been tried. I have severable in my collection, such as a brace that was commonly sold in auto parts places. In most cases, the design of the drive train that endured from the Model T days until 1949 is the reason. The transverse spring allows the driving axle to move against the engine mounts. In turn, the clutch linkage magnifies the movement, setting up the shudder.
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| flatheadfan | -- 08-21-2017 @ 5:23 PM |
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Supereal- I think" I understand the driveline push against the engine mounting as the root cause of clutch chatter, However, what I still don't understand is how the clutch linkage magnifies the movement. Would alternating the clutch freeplay lessen this effect? As usual, thanks for the help. Tom
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| TomO | -- 08-22-2017 @ 6:56 AM |
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You will get the best clutch action with the freeplay adjusted to specs, 3/4" -1" and should be at least 3/4" at high speeds (2,000 RPM and higher). The high speed check is to make sure that there is enough clearance between the throwout bearing and the clutch fingers when the centrifugal force of the counter weights forces the release fingers toward the bearing. Tom
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| supereal | -- 08-22-2017 @ 1:57 PM |
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The pedal shaft is mounted to the frame and connected to the release lever on the engine clutch housing by an adjustable link. As the engine moves back and forth on its mounts, the adjustment is affected. As the clutch pedal is released and the engine is connected to the driveline, the contact between the pressure plate and the disk becomes uneven, contributing to the chatter. That is why proper adjustment of the motor mounts, fore and aft, affects the problem.
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| cliftford | -- 08-22-2017 @ 7:54 PM |
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Suprereal, I like your explanation of clutch chatter. Your knowledge of flathead v8s exceeds mine. but I'm wondering, why does this back and forth movement of the engine and trans. cause uneven contact between the disc and pressure plate assuming the clutch fingers are adjusted properly? I appreciate all the info. you post on this site.
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| sarahcecelia | -- 08-22-2017 @ 9:10 PM |
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TomO, I now of the "clutch things" that can cause chatter, because when I worked for VW I did many clutch jobs; especially in the winter when people tried to get unstuck in the snow. But without crawling under the car, I remembered those radias rods and thought they were what you were referring to. That was a little dumb on my part, because now I realize that nothing on them connects to any part of the trans, bell housing, or any entity to do with the clutch. Please look at my reply, about your reply to a member, about motor mounts and chatter, and answer it. Thanks. Regards, Steve Lee
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| supereal | -- 08-23-2017 @ 2:30 PM |
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The reason the engine movement and the effect on the linkage contributes to the shudder is that it interferes with a smooth grip by the pressure plate on the clutch disk as the pedal is raised until the release is completed. That is why quickly engaging the clutch reduces the problem. The geometry of the linkage allows the release bearing to move the pressure plate by leverage, making the critical point of gripping important. Being sure that the clutch adjustment is correct will usually lessen, but not eliminate, the shudder problem. It is built into our old Fords.
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