| autoluke | -- 07-21-2017 @ 8:12 AM |
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Starting again to summarize my attempt to find the source of overheating...1941 Super Deluxe Conv. 1.Correct fan diameter for this flathead ? 2.Would a fan shroud be helpful ? 3.Other messages suggest that a hi-flow water pump may be helpful. Input ? Realize that this is an old topic, but I want to start at the beginning, as I am new to the Ford flathead.
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| len47merc | -- 07-21-2017 @ 9:05 AM |
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autoluke - thanks for starting a new thread. I'll weigh in here with the fundamentals - assuming these are in place your stock flathead should run ~185-195 degrees max even in 95-100 degree temps, idling and at speed. I will have to leave it to others to confirm your fan diameter question on a '41. Also, if the few items below are effectively addressed there should be no need for a fan shroud. I'd consider that a band-aid used to address a more fundamental system issue. So first of all, ensure: 1) Radiator is known to be clear. If unsure - take it out, have it rodded, cleaned, pressure checked and repaired if necessary. IMHO this the #1 cause of overheating. Just looking at it through the filler neck is insufficient to know your radiator is running clear 2) Block has been cleared of all residual mold sand. I couldn't believe how much was still in my 59AB after 65 years and 37,000+ miles 3) Stats are opening and closing at rating. Check them on the stove top in one of Momma's pots using her candy thermometer to show her how much you love her 4) Stats are being held firmly in place flush with the top of the head water jacket flange by the top hoses 5) You are running a 4# radiator cap Now a few comments: 1) Nothing cools any more effectively than your stock water pumps. Period. 2) Thermostat temp ratings only control the speed at which your car heats up - not the temp your car will operate at most effectively. You can run 155 degree stats if you want - your car will still run at whatever temp it is 'comfortable' at based on the ambient temps. My '47 runs at 185-195 (max) in 90+ degree temps regardless of stat rating. I am still running the original Buck Rogers-looking 177 degree stats but have taken data readings throughout the ambient temperature range with both original-style 155s and 177s and a calibrated thermocouple and know with complete confidence this statement correct. You can run it without stats completely - it will just take even longer to heat up but will still ultimately reach your system's 'happy spot' temp 3) Stats getting blown-up from the water pressure/not being held down effectively and canting in the bottom bend of the top hoses can restrict water flow and cause issues 4) There is a school of thought that high-flow water pumps circulate the water too quickly, thus preventing adequate time in the radiator to cool the water effectively. Have never seen any data that supports or refutes this claim. I can only validate that under identical operating conditions, using a calibrated thermocouple, I could not detect any measurable performance difference between the high-flow (helical impeller, marketing-driven) water pumps versus the stock originals, either at speed or idle. The lone benefit in my opinion of the newer water pumps is the modern sealing systems that are employed today - that's it Bottom line - the primary and most fundamental cause of overheating is a cooling system that is not operating as designed and the radiator is always, IMHO, the first thing to look at. If you have a clean stock radiator, a clean stock block/engine, original water pumps in proper operating order/impellers not broken or for some reason worn, and properly operating stats that are held in position and seated properly, then you should be able to cross most US deserts, climb Pikes Peak, drive to Meets for 12 hours non-stop in 95+ degree temps including idling at stoplights - all and not overheat. There are others on this Forum that can and may weigh in and attest to this. If you go through the entire system and know it is in peak operating condition, and you still have an overheating problem, then some of the more seasoned gurus on our Forum will need to step in. I've yet to see a flathead cooling system operating at peak efficiency have a problem in high ambient temps and routine city and highway driving. Fwiw All comments welcomed! Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 7-21-17 @ 10:05 AM
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| autoluke | -- 07-21-2017 @ 2:39 PM |
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Steve Many thanks for your comprehensive summary. I will now go to work addressing all of the suggested trouble spots. Phil
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| len47merc | -- 07-21-2017 @ 3:13 PM |
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Phil - suggest you get some more replies from others before you take off. These are just my opinions - you might get some great ideas from others or some reinforcements here that'll give you more confidence to go in this direction. Either way there's a lot of great guys on here that can give you some more insight - give it a little bit more time and see what else comes up. Good luck! Steve
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| cliftford | -- 07-21-2017 @ 3:30 PM |
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Steve's comments are pretty complete. I might add one thought: Are you relying on the original guage? Sometimes they are notoriously inaccurate. If so, get a laser thermometer and check operating temp. and the entire cooling system. Also check your cap and make sure it is holding pressure. On my '48 the temp guage is 3/4 of the way toward hot at 180 degrees
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| len47merc | -- 07-21-2017 @ 3:59 PM |
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My '47's gauge reads the same as cliftford's. Just the very, very thinnest of smidgens above 3/4 is 180 degrees. Dead on 3/4 is 177. Halfway between 3/4 and H is 195 degrees. Btw - dead on 1/2 is 145-150 degrees. Cliftford has a very good point here. Steve
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| sarahcecelia | -- 07-21-2017 @ 4:21 PM |
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One comment Steve, if I may- The 4 pound radiator cap has nothing to do with the temperature of the motor; it just raises the boiling point of the liquid in the radiator. I think it raises it about 3 degrees for every pound of pressure.I have the exact figure in my ring binder, but that's pretty close. So the 4 pound cap raises the boiling point to about 224 degrees.The best coolant in the universe is? WATER. I run distilled water in all 4 of my old cars, with 1 gallon of Prestone, to lube and prevent corrosion. I'm in florida and it gets to 95-100 degrees sometimes in the summer. I never have an overheating problem with any of them. The facts that you related to the guy, that wrote the thread, are right on! Regards, Steve Lee
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| sarahcecelia | -- 07-21-2017 @ 4:48 PM |
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Those "guns" to read temperature are Easy to use, just aim and trigger, not too expensive, fairly accurate, and are the "tool to have"for any time you "think ?" your having a motor overheating problem.You'll probably find your temp senser(s) in cylinder head(s) are bad, or your temp gauge in the dash is off. Regards, Steve Lee
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| len47merc | -- 07-21-2017 @ 6:38 PM |
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Anyone have an answer for autoluke on his fan diameter question? What fan is correct versus perhaps 'best' for a '41? According to the '41-'48 Ford Book, "...the V8 engine fan in 1941 was a 16 3/4" diameter, six-blade fan that bolted to the crankshaft pulley near the bottom of the engine". Due to a new fan hub and mounting bracket , the standard 1942 fan had 4 blades and was 16" in diameter. Lastly, the 51-A fan design of 17" diameter applied for '46-'48. Steve
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| len47merc | -- 07-21-2017 @ 6:39 PM |
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And lastly btw - note autoluke has not yet specified how he defines 'overheating', whether the gauge simply gives him the impression he is running hot versus he is actually boiling over versus simply spitting when it gets warm. It would be helpful to know your thoughts here as well autoluke. Steve
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| TomO | -- 07-22-2017 @ 8:24 AM |
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Steve Lee, the main reason to use a 4# radiator cap is to reduce cavitation. The stock pumps tend to cause foaming which leads to cavitation, which leads to overheating and more cavitation. The impellers designed by Skip Haney also try to reduce cavitation and at the same time increase coolant flow. Here is a link to an article on cooling engines. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/256718727_A_review_on_air_flow_and_coolant_flow_circuit_in_vehicles%27_cooling_system Tom
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| Drbrown | -- 07-22-2017 @ 7:48 PM |
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Stock dash gauges, at best, display approximate readings, which is why Ford and other companies typically did not show numbers on their gauge dials. I installed a good quality after-market gauge. After as short drive on a 70 degree day, with 160 degree stats, with radiator clean and stock pumps working, my 51AB idles at abt 175 degrees. I detached my stock gauge from the back of the dash and holding it gently in my hand using a small screw driver, I adjusted the indicator so it pointed to the middle of the gauge thus indicating "normal". Now, at least for my engine, I can more accurately tell what's happening.
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| autoluke | -- 07-23-2017 @ 8:41 AM |
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Thanks to all for the information..well appreciated. Before removing the radiator for testing, I will pursue many of the suggestions from the members. The laser heat gun should be of significant help.
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| len47merc | -- 07-23-2017 @ 9:44 AM |
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autoluke - if you've not used one before be careful and mindful to follow the instructions for the laser. They are very sensitive to the distance held away from the surface to be measured. You can still measure your radiator's condition by checking the incoming (top) water temp when hot versus the outgoing (bottom). As I recall - I believe it was TomO - an acceptable delta is ~15 degrees. I prefer to use a digital thermocouple for the fluid measurement, but you can measure with the laser, from the same distances, the surface temperature of the front of the top versus the bottom radiator tanks. Steve
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| supereal | -- 07-27-2017 @ 11:21 AM |
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My friend Steve and others have offered their good advice. Over the years, I have found that almost all overheating problems can be traced to the radiator. A film of mineral in the radiator tubes no thicker than a coat of paint will substantially reduce the ability of transferring heat to the air. I have been running my '47 in near 100 degree ambient temps this summer with no increase of engine temperature beyond the middle of the gauge. When I first got the car you couldn't go around the block without pegging the gauge until a new radiator was installed. Overheating is probably first on the list of old Ford complaints, followed by clutch shudder, "vapor lock", and hot or cold starting. All have "fixes" if the diagnosis is correct. When dealing with vehicles that are many decades old, the obvious causes are sometimes overlooked. At our shop, when we have a car towed in that had suddenly stopped, the first place we look is whether there is fuel in the tank. Over half the time here wasn't!
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| autoluke | -- 07-30-2017 @ 3:20 AM |
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Tested the radiator with the laser gun, and found only a 12 degree temperature drop from top to bottom. Also found a pin hole leak in the tank-to-core area. To be on the safe side I have decided to replace it with one of the new aluminum units well advertised on the web. Any known issues with these ?
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| len47merc | -- 07-30-2017 @ 7:19 AM |
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Aluminum will not cool as well as your original radiator that is properly and professionally cleaned, repaired and finished. It will work - just not as well as your original. Original. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 7-30-17 @ 7:20 AM
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| village grande | -- 07-30-2017 @ 5:30 PM |
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I just purchased and installed a new aluminum radiator from (Champion Cooling) #CC49FH in my 1951 ford 8ba. It was a direct fit and they claim it will out cool a similar size stock copper brass unit by 40% it has 3 rows of tubing at 5/8 size. Obviously the old unit was tired but the cooling difference is amazing, 40% improvement was no exaggeration.
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| Drbrown | -- 07-30-2017 @ 8:51 PM |
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I see contradictory reports regarding copper vs. aluminum radiators, even in trucking magazines. Previous owner of my '47 installed a copper replacement with stock pumps. He also installed a 20 inch diameter belt-driven 6-blade fan which moves more than enough air through the engine compartment but may seem noisy at high rpm. I tried using a quieter 16 inch diameter electric fan. It controls engine coolant temperature fine but apparently doesn't move enough air through the compartment as I seem to get incidents of vapor lock in stop-n-go traffic on above 70 degree days. (went back to belt-driven fan)
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| autoluke | -- 07-31-2017 @ 7:02 AM |
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Drbrown Would appreciate the source of your 20" 6 blade fan. I have ordered an aluminum radiator from Champion , so that the larger fan will greatly compliment my efforts to achieve the maximum air flow through the system. Phil
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| len47merc | -- 07-31-2017 @ 7:50 AM |
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village grande - appreciate your commenting on your validation process and results achieved with your Champion radiator for your comment "40% improvement was no exaggeration". For me anyway, your comment is the first I've heard with such an endorsement on a stock flathead (you referenced your '51 8ba) and I suspect many here would appreciate hearing of your results and how you validated the same. Not challenging - just curious as it would be very good info to have, especially things like what your base measurement was (original radiator, uncleaned, not rodded, not repainted versus cleaned pristine original tank in peak operating condition, etc.), how did you perform your before and after measurements to validate, etc.. Thanks in advance - Steve
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| village grande | -- 07-31-2017 @ 5:54 PM |
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Len- The fact that my original copper unit was in the car for years before i bought it I have no way to compare what the difference would be and I noted in my post that my comparison was with a " tired Radiator". So I don't claim that I had any validating process. I think the 40% benefit the manufacturer claims is because the aluminum unit has 3 passes of larger tubing compared to two passes of smaller copper tubing. So would you agree that due to the increased distribution and capacity the aluminum would outperform the copper if they were both new? I could be wrong but because of space restrictions I don't think a three pass larger tube copper unit is available.
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| sarahcecelia | -- 07-31-2017 @ 7:39 PM |
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Let it be known that anti freeze holds heat!! If you run straight (pure) anti-freeze-You WILL OVERHEAT!! That is a proven fact!!That's why it is now mixed 50/50 with water when you buy it; to prevent "dummies" from running Straight (pure) anti-freeze. Even so, it can still be purchased straight (pure). That's why I use distilled water and only 1 gallon of 50/50 anti-freeze, and I never have overheating problems! I'm in Florida so that prevents freezing in this climate. For you people In the north, I wouldn't run any more 50/50 anti-freeze than was absolutely needed to prevent a freeze up. Regards, Steve Lee
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| sarahcecelia | -- 07-31-2017 @ 7:57 PM |
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Tom, I respecfully disagree with you, and submit that as I stated, the main reason for pressure caps is to raise the boiling point of the coolant. Cavitation is when the pump would be getting a lot of air in the coolant flow, and that would be controlled by the thermostats, in that they keep a back pressure on the flow by restricting it somewhat to maintain temperature, thus preventing any cavitation. Regards, Steve Lee
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| MGG | -- 07-31-2017 @ 8:07 PM |
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I am one of the dummies that buys the antifreeze concentrate. I find it a lot less expensive to mix it myself.
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| len47merc | -- 08-01-2017 @ 5:08 AM |
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Thanks village grande - I did miss your reference to 'tired radiator' and apologize for my miss there. I was sincere though in my interest to find someone who had not only realized the improvement but had empirical and objective data to support it. I've read so much here and elsewhere regarding the thermodynamic properties of aluminum vs. copper, studied it in my materials science educational background at NC State, and as well have read the marketing claims of the aluminum radiator manufacturers, that having some hands-on real-world experience and measurements would be helpful to many here, or at least me anyway. Whether the extra pass(es) will overcome the reduced ability of aluminum to transfer the heat - that's beyond my pay grade, but I'd like to know. My experience on performance cars has shown improved performance with aluminum radiators over the originals BUT the aluminum radiators were always thicker, sometimes wider, flow was horizontal versus vertical, etc., so there were many more elements at play versus the simple material change. Recently my son supercharged a '94 Miata and changed out the entire cooling system with a sexy performance aluminum horizontal-flow radiator that required a complete re-engineering of the coolant flow through the engine. The radiator is 5 times thicker than the stock. Does it keep it cooler? Absolutely - he had to block the radiator with cardboard during the coldest days this past winter to get the engine up to temp under normal operating conditions (versus racing at VIR). So at what point do the increased 'passes' overcome the reduced heat transfer ability of the aluminum? And under what conditions are the marketing claims valid? So many people experience heating problems on these old Fords that are looking for a quick(er) fix that may or may not be more effective, so having some real data to support the aluminum radiator claims, and be searchable here on the Forum, would be helpful to many. And yes, I'll gladly accept my preference for originality, but also am capable of letting data speak for itself and try to separate fact from fiction whenever I can. Appreciate your patience and reply. Thanks again - Steve
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| TomO | -- 08-01-2017 @ 7:06 AM |
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Steve, if you read the article that I referenced again, you will see that the difference in thermal conductivity can be accommodated by changes in the radiator design. The design of the radiator has more effect on the cooling capacity than the material that the radiator is made from. With the use of studies like the one I referenced and computer simulation, you could design a very deficient radiator out of aluminum or copper. Tom
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| trjford8 | -- 08-01-2017 @ 8:15 AM |
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The drawback to aluminum radiators is they are difficult if not impossible to repair. A leak caused by any type of damage will most likely cause you to throw away the radiator and buy a new one. With copper/brass radiators they can be easily be repaired. Aluminum radiators also add to the issue of electrolysis.
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| len47merc | -- 08-01-2017 @ 8:16 AM |
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Thanks Tom - noted and also appreciated from personal experience as discussed above. The focus of my interest was whether the claims of the current suppliers for aluminum radiators designed to fit our EFV8s has ever been validated with data in practice by any of our members. Yep - I missed village grande's reference to 'tired radiator' and was hoping his comparative statement was based against an original clean radiator. Just want our colleagues (and me) to base our future decisions on data whenever possible. I did and do appreciate your article and have placed the link to it in my reference library folder. Thanks again for posting. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 8-1-17 @ 8:17 AM
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| village grande | -- 08-01-2017 @ 10:01 AM |
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Steve- Not really having the knowledge or experience with copper verses aluminum radiators I think I'm over my head in this discussion. I was just so happy to have turned an engine that ran hot most of the time to one that now runs at normal temperatures. I'm sure as stated in prior posts an original copper unit in good condition would work perfectly well. With the new radiator installed, it at least proved to me that the old unit was restricted and to blame for my overheating. The engine over time was running hotter and hotter reaching temperatures of 220 to 230 and puking coolant out the blow-off tube. My stock 51 ford temperature gauge now barely reaches the center mark, I'll need to re-install my thermostat's to allow the engine to warm up sufficiently. Thanks for all the great information, I learn something every time I visit this site. Bill
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| len47merc | -- 08-01-2017 @ 11:01 AM |
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Thanks Bill for your comments. Sometimes my thirst for data and originality gets in the way of more supportive written word on my part, and, that which is most important - that being you are driving your car, enjoying it and have confidence in its reliability. Nothing beats having these cars in gear and driving them - I'm really glad you're overheating issue is resolved and you're on the road! Post a pic of your '41 when you've a moment! Steve
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| village grande | -- 08-01-2017 @ 11:21 AM |
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Steve - Picture of my Stock 51 except for the radiator! Bill
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| village grande | -- 08-01-2017 @ 11:24 AM |
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I meant to send this one
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| len47merc | -- 08-01-2017 @ 11:41 AM |
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Nice! Thanks for posting! And btw - maybe, through all of this, somehow, just maybe autoluke got the info he was looking for! Steve
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| MG | -- 08-01-2017 @ 11:50 AM |
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village grande - I really like looking at the babe across the street from your car. I'm kinda overheating here.... :o) This message was edited by MG on 8-1-17 @ 11:52 AM
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| autoluke | -- 08-02-2017 @ 8:00 AM |
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I did indeed get the information, thanks to accurate and substantial input from several members. I am awaiting delivery of a Champion aluminum unit, and will report performance stats next week.
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