| chask | -- 06-09-2017 @ 5:40 PM |
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Hi all, I am a newbie to the world of antique vehicles and the ford flathead. I recently retired and was looking for a project to keep busy and boy did I find one. I purchased a 1937 Ford pickup in January from an antique car dealer and am having problems with the engine. The Truck has what I think is a 1941 Flathead V8 (it has the raised intake manifold and helmet distributor). The engine is running rough and seems to be running on 4 cylinders and is difficult to start. It is also making a clanking sound my wife says sounds like a horse clop. I have installed a re-built model 94 Carburetor from Charlie NY and had the Distributor checked out by Charlie NY. (Many thanks to Charlie. He went above and beyond and even had me send the carb and distributor back to him to re-verify on his engine that they were OK, which they were.) Here is what I’ve found so far: I pulled off the spark plug wires one at a time and found no change in engine speed when 3, 4, 5 and 7 were pulled. 1, 2, 6 and 8 caused the engine to slow when pulled. It seems like it is running on 4 cylinders. All 8 wires when pulled have strong blue sparks. I have tried changing back to the original coil and spark plugs with no change. There is no backfiring at all either thru the exhaust or thru the carburetor. Checked compression both hot and cold and readings are: Cyl 1 - 110 Cyl 2 - 105 Cyl 3 - 110 Cyl 4 - 115 Cyl 5 - 115 Cyl 6 - 105 Cyl 7 - 105 Cyl 8 - 100 I also looked at each valve thru the spark plug hole while cranking and all valves that I can see are moving (None stuck??). Can't see both valves on Cyl 4 and 8. Checked intake manifold vacuum and gauge fluctuates rapidly between 7-12 to 16 inches Hg. It will run on 4 cylinders and stops making clanking, clopping, noise when I disconnect #1 spark plug and run on 3. Here is the complete list of things I’ve done so far: Purchased Re-built Model 94 Carburetor from Charlie NY in March 2017. Sent Helmet distributor to Charlie NY to check. He adjusted timing and replaced condenser, all other parts good. Installed new NGK B4L spark plugs (Also tried going back to old ones with no change) Installed new coil from NAPA P/N ECH IC7 (Also tried going back to original with no change) Installed new spark plug wires from Joe’s Antique Auto (Also checked by Charlie) Dropped the gas tank and cleaned out minor rust and flushed (Sat empty for 4-5 weeks before refilling) Installed new copper coated steel gas line from Joe’s Installed new gas filter at the tank before the electric fuel pump and one after the mechanical pump (still has mechanical pump at the engine) Changed oil and added Marvel Mystery oil in crankcase (1 Qt to 3 Qts oil) Added Marvel Mystery oil to gas tank. Added Berryman B-12 to carburetor and to gas tank. Any ideas out there as to the cause or other tests to try. I don't understand the good compression readings with bad valves but what do I know. I am in New Jersey so if anyone knows of a local flathead expert please let me know. I am OK with removing the intake manifold and heads to look around but have limited knowledge and tools for performing a valve job. (although I’d like to try) Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| JayChicago | -- 06-09-2017 @ 7:27 PM |
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Your symptoms make me think of incorrect firing order, especially when you say the horse-clopping noise goes away when you pull one plug wire. Did Charlie NY check your new wires as installed in the distributer caps? If so, are you then confident you have the wires going to the correct cylinders?
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-09-2017 @ 7:49 PM |
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Use a vacuum gage to help trace this one down. You may have a leak in the intake manifold affecting 1/2 the engine. If you have an aluminum intake they were known to develop holes up top or on the bottom, inside the lifter galley. Check your distributor caps and be sure the firing order is correct. make sure the caps are firmly in the notch in the distributor The clanking noise could be related to the fuel pump pushrod, incorrect length or a failing pump. Cast iron and aluminum intakes used different length fuel pump rods, and various fuel pumps were used over the years. Let us know what you find.
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| chask | -- 06-10-2017 @ 3:09 AM |
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Thanks for the reply, The distributor wiring was checked out by Charlie NY. I sent him the distributor with all the new wires attached and he put it on his engine and it ran fine. He said it was wired correctly as received. He has been a great help in sorting thru this and I am sure now the carb and distributor are good as both were installed on his engine and ran fine. Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| chask | -- 06-10-2017 @ 3:46 AM |
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Checked intake manifold vacuum and gauge fluctuates rapidly between 7-12 to 16 inches Hg. It runs 7-12 with all cylinder plug wires attached and jumps to 7-16 when #1 plug wire is pulled. The engine is mostly stock and the intake manifold is cast iron. The clanking stops when #1 plug is removed so I don't think the fuel pump rod would be the cause since it should still be moving. To check for leaks in the intake manifold I have read to use propane (not lit) and slowly move around the intake to see if the engine speed increases. If it does it pinpoints the leaky area. Sound like a good plan??? I will try to attach photo of the engine. Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-10-2017 @ 7:57 AM |
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Charlie, from what you describe your vacuum readings indicate a weak or broken valve spring and/or loose valve guides. You may have lost the horse shoe clip which holds the guide in place, with split guides this could cause the guide to move around and the spring to loosen. Yes using a propane torch or carb cleaner works to check vacuum leaks. Be carful using any flammable products around a hot running engine. Things can go boom in a bad way! One last thing, firing order on a flathead starts with #1,2,3,4 on the passenger side 5,6,7,8, on the drivers side. Those of us who grew up on brand X cars this is a change in thinking.
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| chask | -- 06-10-2017 @ 9:03 AM |
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Pauls39coupe, Thanks for the info. Sounds like the best option is take off the intake manifold to look at the springs and guides then take it from there. Is it possible to replace just the springs and guides or does a complete valve job need to be done. I don't have the tools to lap and polish the valves but the springs and guides should be doable. The firing order was my first guess when this problem showed up but turns out I had all the wires correct and was aware of the firing order. I spend a lot of time on the forums learning about the flatheads so it's been fun even with all the problems. Believe it or not I'm looking forward to looking into the workings of the engine even if I end up having someone else perform the work. Attached is a picture of the "raised" intake manifold that is leading me to believe it is a 1941 Engine. Any comments? I haven't figured out how to post multiple pictures so doing them one at a time. I also have a picture of a strange circular stamp on the bell housing that has a "P" and a "5" with some other markings I can't make out. I have been unable to verify what the stamp means. Rebuilt? After market block? Thanks again for your help! Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| chask | -- 06-10-2017 @ 10:24 AM |
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Here is the marking on the bell housing of engine. I can't find any info on this stamp and there are no other stamping on the bell housing. I want to be sure it is a 1941 so if I find I need parts I can get the right ones. Thanks Charlie Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| TomO | -- 06-10-2017 @ 11:03 AM |
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There seems to be no correlation between the failing cylinders and the ignition or fuel delivery system, so it would seem to be something that affects certain cylinders. First I would check the strength of the spark. The coil that you have has an internal resister and the resister under the dash should be bypassed. The coil should be installed with the + connector connected to the adapter plate connection for the lead of the condenser. There should be at least 6.0 volts at the input to the coil with the ignition on and the engine not running. Remove one of the plug wires from a failing cylinder and hold it close to a head nut with the engine running. The spark should jump about 1/2" and be blue in color. Am orange spark is weak. If you have good spark and the spark plugs are clean, the next step would be to check out the intake manifold for an obstruction. I have heard that some people have had success using a vacuum cleaner to clean the passages without removing the intake. You could also have leakage between the 2 runners. It is possible for the intake to rust through. You would have to pull the intake manifold and inspect it to determine if this is your problem. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 6-10-17 @ 11:07 AM
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| chask | -- 06-10-2017 @ 1:35 PM |
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Hi Tom, Thanks for the comments. The spark on all cylinders is blue and jumps about an inch. The resistor has been removed and new and old coils and spark plugs have been used with no change. The distributor and with wires still attached were also verified on another engine along with the carburetor and performed perfectly. Based on that it does seem to be something with the intake manifold or valves. Your comment on a clogged intake manifold or a hole between the two runners is definitely a possibility I didn't think of. It's behaving like gas isn't getting to the non-firing cylinders since the plugs in those cylinders stay very clean and they are getting spark. It looks more and more like I need to pull the intake and see what is going on in there. Thanks again for the help! Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| 40cpe | -- 06-10-2017 @ 5:12 PM |
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Charlie, thanks for sharing this brain-teaser with us. With your attitude I know you will figure it out. I'm looking forward to the solution. With your symptoms, fuel sounds like a logical place to start although I can't reconcile the clatter on #1. Maybe you have two issues going on.
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| coup | -- 06-11-2017 @ 5:36 AM |
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Don't know about noise, but when my car ran on only 4, one side of the carb was plugged. (It would idle just fine)
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| chask | -- 06-11-2017 @ 2:09 PM |
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Thanks guys for the input. I tend to agree there may be two problems lurking. I will try to get to pulling the intake manifold this week and post what I find. Does anyone know if the timing gear had a broken tooth or skipped a tooth would that cause 4 cylinders to not fire? I would think all cylinders would be affected but not sure. Charlie
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| TomO | -- 06-11-2017 @ 6:31 PM |
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One tooth out of time will just cause the engine to run poorly and get awfully hot. It will affect all cylinders. Tom
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| chask | -- 06-12-2017 @ 7:52 AM |
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Update 6/12/17 Pulled the intake manifold and it seemed way too easy. All bolts were tight but came out without a battle and intake lifted off easily like it was installed recently. I used a vacuum cleaner to test the flow from each of the carburetor ports to each of the intake ports and all was fine. Each side of the carburetor responded only to the correct intake ports (no Cross over). Everything is very clean and it appears to have adjustable lifters installed. All clips are installed although I can move some of them left to right but not all of them but no broken parts. Don't know if that means anything. I've attached a picture of Cyl 1&2 springs and all the others look the same. I still can't figure out how to attach multiple pictures so if anyone knows please advise. Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-12-2017 @ 7:55 PM |
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OK Charlie, take a good look at the bottom of the manifold. You are looking for cracks or holes that would allow a vacuum leak which would affect half the cylinders. Is it possible the manifold was not torqued down properly, allowing a leak? Check your lifter clearance. A valve which is always open, even slightly, will affect the mixture in the adjacent cylinders. If there are no broken parts in the valve train, look for a weak spring, or a lifter with no clearance which would hold a valve off it's seat. Normally those horse shoe clips are hard to move, they may not be seated correctly, or the spring pressure is extremely weak. The clips should not be visible except for the tab. I can't tell from the photo if they are properly in place. Some of the reproduction horse shoe clips are too thick to fit correctly. Keep trying and let us know your results.
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| TomO | -- 06-13-2017 @ 6:53 AM |
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Thois Forum only allows 1 photo per reply. To post multiple photos you must use multiple replies or Use a photo sharing service as explained in this topic https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=70 It appears that you have the 8BA type valves installed and the clips that I can see look like they are seated. Which cylinders can you move the clips on? Also indicate whether it is just the intake, exhaust or both. I have enhanced your photo to make the clips show up better. Tom
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| chask | -- 06-13-2017 @ 8:06 AM |
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Appreciate all the help so far working thru this. I think the clips are seated correctly since you can only see the tab. the tabs that I can move only move when the lifter is all the way down and I can slide a feeler gauge between the adjusting nut and the valve stem. I will take another look at the intake manifold but I didn't see anything that stood out either in the manifold or the block or either side of the gasket. It does have the raised intake area on the block so the contact is only to the raised area. I was just surprised that everything lifted off without any force. The gasket was the silver colored (graphite?) type. Again don't know if that is OK but other gaskets (carb, fuel pump, distributor were really stuck on and had to be scr*ped off. We also made a video before taking the intake off and I posted it to YouTube this morning. The wires were pulled one at a time to determine affect on engine speed and sound. The truck had been running for about 10 minutes and then restarted. It was very difficult to initially start but after running for ten minutes it started right up which is at the beginning of the video. The wire pulls start at 2:35 in the video. The link is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuGaeVldmdA&feature=youtu.be I have been reading about checking the valve lash and found the following information that I was going to try today. Is the gap reading valid as long as the lifter is fully down? I won't change anything yet just try and get info. Here is what I found as to how to check the gap. "When you pull off the intake you will find one of the combinations listed on the left. If you find an “a” set opened you use all of the “a” sequencing. If it is a “b” use all the “b” sequencing and so-forth." Sequencing: Valves Opened - Adjust these a) 4X -- 1N ---> 3X- 3N- 8N- 6N- 7X- 2X b) 8X – 5N ---> 1X- 7N- 6N- 7X- 3N- 2X c) 6X – 4N ---> 5X- 2N- 1X- 7N- 3N- 2X a) 3X – 8N ---> 1X- 7N- 5X- 2N- 4X- 1N b) 6N – 7X ---> 5X- 2N- 4X- 1N- 8X- 5N c) 3N – 2X ---> 4X - 1N- 8X- 5N- 6X- 4N a) 1X – 7N ---> 8X- 5N- 6X- 4N b) 5X – 2N ---> 6X- 4N- 3X- 8N c) 4X – 1N ---> 3X- 8N- 6N- 7X I'll post the measurement results and take a look at the picture posting methods. Thanks again guys! Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| chask | -- 06-13-2017 @ 4:21 PM |
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Hi all, todays Info. I re-inspected the Intake manifold body and mounting surface and everything looked good. The gasket showed signs it was compressed and fully in contact with the block and the manifold. Just to be sure there wasn’t a crack somewhere inside the intake manifold I blocked one side of the carburetor ports with a cork and filled the associated intake ports with water. I let it sit for about an hour and looked at the other intake ports for any evidence of water but there was none. The other carburetor port was also dry. I measured the valve lifter clearance using the “A” method from my last post. Here is how it was done: Starting with #4 Exhaust and #1 intake “Open” (lifter at the top of travel) the associated valve clearances were measured using .001” increment feeler gauges. The numbers listed are the feeler gauge sizes that slid easily between the valve stem and the lifter. When checked with the next size I could force it under the lifter but there was drag on the gauge. After completing the first set of valves I moved the crank pulley clock wise (if standing at the front of the truck and looking at the windshield) until #3 Exhaust and #8 Intake were open at their highest point. Made the measurements and continued as above until all measurements were complete. I don’t know if there are any smoking guns here other than they are not consistent and the driver’s side bank is higher than the passenger side in both exhaust and intake. I think the correct setting is .012 for intake and .014 for exhaust but I need to research that more to be sure. Just a reminder cylinders 3, 4, 5 and 7 were the ones that did not change the engine speed when the spark plug wires were removed. Here are the results: #1 exhaust =.010 Intake = .009 #2 exhaust =.011 Intake = .010 #3 exhaust =.012 Intake = .008 #4 exhaust = .016 Intake = .007 #5 exhaust = .013 Intake = .011 #6 exhaust = .014 Intake = .011 #7 exhaust = .014 Intake = .013 #8 exhaust = .015 Intake = .013 I also checked all the spring/valve guide clips both in the open (lifter up) and closed (lifter down) position. All movement was by hand (two fingers). Here are the results: Codes: L/R= Movement left and right U/D= Movement up and down T= Tight, could not move #1 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= L/R, U/D, Intake = L/R (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=L/R, U/D Intake=T #2 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= L/R, U/D, Intake = T (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=L/R, U/D Intake=T #3 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= L/R, U/D, Intake = T (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=L/R, U/D Intake=T #4 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= L/R, Intake = T (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=L/R, Intake=T #5 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= L/R, Intake = T (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=L/R, Intake=T #6 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= L/R, Intake = T (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=L/R, Intake=T #7 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= L/R, Intake = T (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=L/R, Intake=T #8 (VALVE OPEN) , Exhaust= T, Intake = T (VALVE CLOSED), Exhaust=T, Intake=T Sorry for the long post but trying to get as much info out as possible. I've also attached a pdf file of the data that is a little easier to read. Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| 40cpe | -- 06-13-2017 @ 5:58 PM |
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If you are able to grasp the tab on a horseshoe clip and move it up and down, I would check that the clips are inserted in the guide groove and not between the top of the spring and the guide. If you look at the top of the valve chamber you should see about 1/8" of the guide below the horse shoe clip. It is very easy to insert the clip in the wrong place while trying to hold the guide down with the bar.
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| chask | -- 06-14-2017 @ 7:02 AM |
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I think they are in the grove but not sure. They all look the same when viewing into the intake port of the block. What I see is the domed top of the valve guide with the valve stem. I have attached a picture in this post of the intake port of Cylinder #1 and on the next post the clips/springs for the Exhaust and Intake valves of Cylinder #1. On Cylinder #1 I can move the clip UP/Down and Left/Right with my hand with the lifter in any position. Thanks, Charlie Thanks, Charlie Knarr 1937 Ford 1/2 ton pickup New Jersey
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| chask | -- 06-14-2017 @ 7:05 AM |
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Spring Clips for Exhaust and Intake valves of Cylinder #1. On Cylinder #1 I can move the clip UP/Down and Left/Right with my hand. Thanks, Charlie
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| chask | -- 06-15-2017 @ 6:53 AM |
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Hi guys, Been studying all this crazy data and the only correlation I can come up with is a pattern based on the firing order. The firing order is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2. If you correlate that order to the cylinders that are firing and not firing you come up with this: 1-Good 5-Bad 4-Bad 8-Good 6-Good 3-Bad 7-Bad 2-Good Now if you set that into a loop it looks like this: 1-Good 5-Bad 4-Bad 8-Good 6-Good 3-Bad 7-Bad 2-Good 1-Good 5-Bad 4-Bad 8-Good 6-Good 3-Bad 7-Bad 2-Good 1-Good 5-Bad 4-Bad 8-Good 6-Good 3-Bad 7-Bad 2-Good -and so on..... So, it looks like when any two cylinders in succession fire then the next two do not. Does this make any sense to anyone?? Not sure where to go from here. Thanks, Charlie
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| TomO | -- 06-15-2017 @ 7:25 AM |
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Looking at the valve springs and from your description of the problem, I think that you will have to replace all of the valve springs. The coils on your valve springs look like they are much further apart than in an engine I have in my garage. You may also have a mismatch in parts, springs for rotater valves with non rotating valves. The valve springs should put enough pressure on the guide to keep the clip from moving up and down and make it difficult to rotate the clip when the valves are closed. The clips should not be able to rotate when the valves are open. When the valves are closed the spring should be 2.13" and the pressure should be 40-43 lbs. With the valves open, the spring should be 1.84" long and the pressure 76-80lbs. Disassemble the valves in cylinder 1. The parts should look like either the 48-50 or the 51-53 drawing on this page. http://vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_engine-pics/Flathead_Engine_valve1949to53.jpg If they look like the 48-50 drawing, the spring should measure 2.48" and have 10 coils. If they look like the 51-53 drawing the spring should be 2.2" long. If you have the 2.2" spring, the valve should measure 4.54" long and you need sleeve 6517. The 48-50 valve measures 4.75 long. You will have to match the springs and sleeve to the valve length. Edit: I just had a chance to listen to your video of the spark test. It may be to your advantage to put the intake manifold back on and repeat the test with the camera under the hood, so we can hear the engine noises and not the exhaust noises. The guys on the Forum may be able to determine if there are more issues with the engine other than the valve guides moving up and down. When you start dissembling the valves be sure to keep them in order, so they can go back in the places that they came from. You may have to lap in the valves depending on how they and the seats look. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 6-15-17 @ 8:11 AM
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-15-2017 @ 9:05 AM |
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Charlie, Tom O is on to something. In your video it sounds like #1 is firing with the exhaust or intake valve open, thus the plop sound. Your valves need to be adjusted to .012 and .014. If your springs are mismatched for the valve they won't keep the valve closed. Ford manifolds are designed so that 1/2 the carburetor feeds 1/2 the cylinders. If one cylinder fires with the intake valve partially open, it will dilute the charge for the next cylinder on that side in the firing order. You may have a case where the incoming charge becomes so diluted that the mixture is too lean to fire. Try setting the valves to a proper clearance, this may help. However based on your vacuum test I believe you have some weak springs. They may be the incorrect size for the valve you are using , or possibly weak foreign made products.
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| chask | -- 06-15-2017 @ 11:20 AM |
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Thanks Tom and Paul you guys have been a great help. Here is a short video made the day before the one I last posted. It starts at the back but at 40 seconds my wife moved to the front. You can also see the pause in the engine when the missing cylinders don't fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzYIZvrdlY4&feature=youtu.be I went out to see how difficult turning the lifter adjusting bolt would be to see if I would need to order the hold back fixture and found that they are very loose. When engaging the wrench onto the flats of the bolt the bolt moves freely with no force. Also, with the wrench on the bolt I can lift the spring easily with my index finger. The wrench is also only .060" thick so not very strong. I can't imagine the adjustment staying the same for very long with everything being so loose. If you still think I should try and adjust the lifters and put the intake back on that is no problem, I will do that. It is looking like the springs are shot or the wrong ones were used and in any case would need to be replaced. If the video doesn't point out any other major defects, I can remove the 1-4 cylinder head and start to disassemble the valves. Thanks again, Thanks, Charlie
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| TomO | -- 06-15-2017 @ 6:42 PM |
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Charlie, I did not hear anything in the engine that I think would require reassembling the engine. Adjusting the valve clearance with the weak spring tension would be a futile effort, because the valves will not be held tightly to their seats. The bolt on the lifters will turn the whole lifter unless the lifter is held stationary with the lifter tool. The threads on the adjusting bolt and the lifter are a locking type that require force to move them. The tools just barely work and when I have an engine rebuilt, I ask the machine shop to drill the lifter boss, so I can use a pin pinch to hold the lifter during adjustment. To remove the valves, you will need a tool to pull the valve guides down to release the clip. Reproductions are available. I don't know how they work, but the ones that they sold 40 years ago are wall hangers, (they were too big to pull down the guide and slipped out of the groove). You might try to contact a local Regional Group to see if someone has one that you can borrow or buy. Mac Van Pelt sells the reproduction and rents the tools. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_tools_forsale.htm From your description of the spring tension, you probably will not require the bar to remove cyl 1 valves. The clip should just come out with a little downward pressure on the guide. Good luck and let us know what you find. Tom
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-16-2017 @ 9:09 AM |
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Charlie, You may have several problems related to valves. Did the whole lifter turn or was the adjusting nut loose in the lifter? You need the lifter tool to hold the lifter body in place while you turn the adjusting nut. They are hard to use as Tom O said. It is best to have an 1/8 hole drilled in the lifter bore to hold them in place. However I would not recommend doing that now, as you don't need a bunch of metal filings floating around in the engine. The original Johnson adjustable lifters were designed so that the adjusting bolt locked in place where it was set. Some of the reproduction lifters have a hardware style bolt that will move up or down with ease. These will not hold their adjustment setting. If your adjusting bolts move up and down with no resistance, I'm afraid they are scr*p. The valve springs should have about 40 lbs. of pressure with the valve closed. I doubt you could move them with one finger unless you are King Kong. Sorry to say but it may be time to pull the heads and remove the valves. Check the spring length as Tom suggested, if that is correct have the tension checked at a machine shop. Look at the lifters to be sure the adjustment locks in place. Be sure the valves and seats are good and that you don't have a bent valve stem. If you have one piece valve guides, put a valve in it and cover the stem end with your finger. Pull the valve out quickly and you should hear a pop. If the valve stem or the guide bore is worn they will have too much clearance to form a seal thus you will not hear a pop. Time for new guides/or new valves. Be sure to keep all your parts in order #1 valve #1 Guide, #1 Lifter, as these parts tend to maintain a given wear pattern. Let us know what you find.
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| chask | -- 06-16-2017 @ 10:08 AM |
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Thanks guys! I will order the valve removal tool (pickle fork) and start the disassembly when it comes. Today I checked to see if I could move the springs with a screw driver and yes I can but I also noticed that when the valve is closed and the lifter is down (spacing between the lifter and valve stem) I can move the spring slightly left and right with my hand. That would say there is no or almost no force holding the valve closed. Shouldn't the spring be applying some force to hold the valve closed? If so it sounds like the springs are not long enough or the valve stems are too long. Correct??? Addition 1:44PM: I also can spin the springs around the valve stem so that further says no applied pressure from the spring to the valve. Charlie Thanks, Charlie This message was edited by chask on 6-16-17 @ 10:44 AM
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-16-2017 @ 5:36 PM |
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Charlie, You may have the late 52-53 springs with the earlier valves and keepers. See Tom o's post about spring length .
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| chask | -- 06-17-2017 @ 4:24 AM |
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Paul, Yes, Tom called it in his post of 6/15. At the time I made up a little fixture to measure the spring length with the valve open and closed and the numbers looked good. I figured I couldn't measure spring length since they were installed and should have been in compression. The thing I missed was that when the valves were closed the springs were not compressed. I went back and measured the springs that are loose and they look like they are 2.2". Sounds like I need the 2.48" long springs. Great call on Tom's part. I would have never thought the wrong parts were installed. Thanks again to you and all the guys who helped sort this out. I'll post details of what I find but I think this is the smoking gun. (I hope!) Charlie
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| TomO | -- 06-17-2017 @ 7:24 AM |
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Charlie, before you order any parts, perform the checks in my 6/15 post on the valves in cylinder 1. Leave all of the other valves in place to ensure that they are not mixed up. You will want to keep all of the parts in their original places when you reassemble the engine. If yon don't you may end up withe poor compression on one or more cylinders and excessive oil consumption. When you have the valve in cylinder one out, you can remove the lifter and check to see that the screw is difficult to turn. Tom
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| chask | -- 06-17-2017 @ 8:17 AM |
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Tom, Will do. I have printed out your post from 6/15 and put it in my notebook so I can read it as I go. I will only work on one valve at a time and take measurements of all the parts and post the info before ordering or replacing anything. I'm hoping it is as simple as putting in a new spring but you never know. I did recheck the lifter screw and you were right it is the whole lifter that turns not the screw. The screw appears to be tight. I am also buying the two piece lifter holding fixture that doesn't get great reviews but I think it is my only choice since, like you said, it is not wise at this point to drill the block for the hold back pin. Maybe on the next rebuild! I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the help you guys have provided. This has been a great learning experience! Charlie
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| JayChicago | -- 06-17-2017 @ 9:37 AM |
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Let me jump into the pause in this interesting thread to make a simple commentary: You guys are amazing! I continue to be impressed by the expertise, depth of experience, and analytical skills I see on this board. I feel like I am sitting at the feet of masters! And even Charlie, a newbie to flatheads, obviously has the analytical skills to work through this mysterious problem. You are all truly Impressive! Jay
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-17-2017 @ 6:15 PM |
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Charlie, Glad we could help out. It is hard to cure a problem via email, but I thank you for posting what you had found when the guys made suggestions. I think this helps everyone when the problems are uncovered. Please let us know how it turns out. Paul
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| chask | -- 06-18-2017 @ 9:40 AM |
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Jay, Thanks for the kind words. The guys on this forum are truly amazing and willing to help. I would never have attempted this without all the support from the guys on the forum. I have pulled the passenger side head off and I think it looks pretty good. Lots of carbon build up but I think that is from the MMO I was putting into it over the last month or so prior to trying to start it. The only thing different between the cylinders is one valve on Cylinder #2 is tan while the rest are black. (Cylinder #2 is a good cylinder. Looking into the spark plug hole on cylinder #8 it also has one tan valve and is also a good cylinder.) Don't know if that means anything. On the pistons that are down, the cylinder walls do not look scored or worn at all. They are very smooth and no ridge at the top. Note: the debris in the cylinders is from the head removal that I did not clean out yet. Cylinder #1 does have more carbon build up at the top of the piston travel than the other 3 cylinders. I have set up links to pictures below. Happy Fathers Day to All!! Thanks, Charlie Block Cylinders 1-4 (#1 on Right) https://goo.gl/photos/GWmsxXd9RyCiUvgg8 Head, Cylinder 1-4 (#1 on Left) https://goo.gl/photos/5h3mLZfKhTbnmzoM6 #4 cylinder close up https://goo.gl/photos/X8bJfNaTWLLyuroz7
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| chask | -- 06-19-2017 @ 9:17 AM |
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6/19/17 Update: I was able to take out the exhaust valve of Cylinder #2. The spring and clip were loose and it's location was the easiest to reach without the "pickle fork". I did not remove the valve guide since it was tight in the block. The assembly looks like the 1948-1950 drawing on the VanPelt site that Tom O referenced on 6/15. The spring measures 2.2" long. The valve measures 4.81" long from the top of the valve to the end of the valve stem. After doing some reading I think the measurement should be taken from the top of the valve to the center of the retainer slot at the bottom of the valve stem. If I measure that distance it is approx. 4.54" which would mean the valve and the spring are correct and are the 1951 to 1953 versions. However, the spring retainer looks like the 1948-1950 style not the 1951 to 1953 that the valves and springs appear to be. If that is all true, the only thing mismatched is the retainer assembly. Would the retainer type make enough difference to allow 40 lbs of force or 0 lbs of force if wrong?? Attached is a picture of the valve, spring and retainer and a copy of a drawing with dimensions of the valve from my notebook. I am now more confused than ever! Thanks, Charlie Addition: The valve is also marked "S1931" on the stem. Valve picture: https://goo.gl/photos/Q5jW8Vhk6RdnnJCx9 Valve dimensions: https://goo.gl/photos/HgjAwRH6W3FRdvbu9 This message was edited by chask on 6-19-17 @ 11:05 AM
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| TomO | -- 06-19-2017 @ 6:33 PM |
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You have the 4.75 long valves. The measurement is from the seating surface to the end of the stem. I just measured 2 of my spare valves and from the top of the face to the bottom of the stem, one measured 4.841 and the other measured 4.838. You will need all new springs that measure 2.48" and have 10 coils. Tom
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| chask | -- 06-19-2017 @ 8:02 PM |
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Thanks once again Tom, I am forever grateful! I will call Van Pelt tomorrow to order the springs. Is there anything else I should Replace? Should I lap the valves or just reassemble since compression seems good? Is there a preferred head and intake Gasket? Is using a pressure washer OK for cleaning the carbon from the heads? Best way to clean piston / head carbon? Do you know of a good book i can buy that would help with the engine work? Sorry for all the questions just don't want to mess up now. Thanks Charlie
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| TomO | -- 06-20-2017 @ 6:48 AM |
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If the seating area of the valves looks good and the seats look good, I would take a chance and not lap the valves. I don't like the idea of valve grinding compound is a partially assembled engine. I like to be able to thoroughly wash the compound out with soap and water. Your compression readings could have been closer between cylinders, 2, 6,and 8 are low, but that could be caused by the poor spring pressure. The photo of the valve that you posted, shows quite a bit of carbon on the seating surface, if that cleans up you should be OK. I prefer the regular head gaskets. You should probably modify your heads to improve cooling as shown in the pdf file I have attached. This will allow you to use the 59A type head gasket. I like to clean all of the threads on the studs with a thread CHASER and oil. Wipe the oil from the studs and then install the heads. Hand tighten all of the nuts and then using the tighten sequence, tighten all nuts to 25 Ft-lbs. Next use the sequence to tighten them to 35 Ft-lbs and finally to 45 ft-lbs. Fill the engine with coolant. Start and run engine until it is at normal operating temperature and torque to 55 ft-lbs. Cleaning the heads with a pressure washer will not harm them, but I believe that you will still have to scr*pe them. Cleaning the pistons in the while they are in the bores is done by scr*ping them. I like to clamp a shop vacuum cleaner hose so that it will collect the debris. There are many books about building flatheads. I like the Repair Manual Ford, Mercury and Truck V8 Engines 1937-1947 book. It is available in reprint from many vendors. I hope that some of the other experienced posters will chip in with their advice. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 6-20-17 @ 7:01 AM
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| chask | -- 06-20-2017 @ 9:28 AM |
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OK, I am ready to forge ahead! I have cleaned up the valve using a soft brass brush and the carbon is coming off so I'll just take a chance without lapping. I also removed the #2 cylinder exhaust valve guide today and it has the seals installed. I thought they were only used on the intake valves although some people say to use them on all the valve guides. Thoughts? Tom, The mod to the head sounds like a good idea. Will do, Thanks for the info. Now for the new info. The heads are P/N 81A-6049A (Passenger side) and 81A-6050A (Drivers side). On my engine they are mounted on the wrong sides (6050 is on the Passenger side and 6049 is on the drivers side). Some people say it doesn't matter and others say it does. The only difference I can find is the number of taps at the water inlets on the head. Some later ones have two for the temp gauge and hot water heater. Both of mine only have one tap. Also the thread size can be different from side to side on some heads. Is it best to install them on the correct sides now or because they were mounted on the wrong sides just put them back as they were (not planning on machining the heads)? Also, the 1941 engine should have studs and nuts to hold the head on but mine has bolts, no washers except for under two bolts which have 3 each. I'm guessing the wrong size bolts were used.(see picture below, ones with 3 washers are marked with arrow). Is it worth installing studs or are the bolts OK? This truck is far from a show truck so just want to get it running if possible. I will chase the threads in the block to make sure I get correct torque readings per Tom. Hopefully this is the last set of questions and I can get to work and see if this thing runs. I'll keep everyone posted on results. Thanks again for your help, Charlie
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-20-2017 @ 7:14 PM |
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Charlie, Studs generally do a better job of holding the heads in place, which is one reason you see them on a lot of racing engines. I'm sure Ford had his reasons for using them on the early flathead. The 49 -53 engines used bolts and seemed to hold up just fine. Others may weight in with opinions for or against. Personally I would go with the studs. If you clean out the threads, use a thread chaser. Using a regular tap may cut the threads wider than they need to be, giving water a place to leak. Use the original style graphite type head gasket for the best seal.
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| TomO | -- 06-21-2017 @ 7:54 AM |
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The threads in the block were cut for the rolled threads on the studs. The 49-53 blocks designed for bolts, would have a different torque value (65-70 ft-lbs) than 39-48 block that have the studs with nuts. I am not sure what torque value would be used when you use bolts in a block designed for studs. Make sure that you have the correct length bolts, so that they will not bottom before the correct torque value is reached. I have seen quite a few engines built with bolts that have had no problems, but I still don't recommend them for blocks and heads not designed for them. Now that you have Paul's opinion and mine, you will have to make up your mind. If you decide to go with studs, order them from Roy Nacewicz. as his are the correct length and have the correct threads. Use Permatex no 2 on the threads going into the block, whether you use the studs or the bolts. Tom
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| chask | -- 06-21-2017 @ 1:04 PM |
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Thanks Guys, Looks like studs win. I checked the bolts I removed and there is a mix of Grade 8 and Grade 2 so that is probably not a good thing since they may yield differently when torqued. I looked at Roy's site and it doesn't look like he sells the head gaskets or the springs. Any preferred vendor for those parts? I haven't ordered parts yet just the Pickle Fork (due today) to remove the current springs to see if I find any other hidden issues. I thought that if no other issues are found there is lots of cleaning to do on the heads, valves and block while I wait for parts. Charlie
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| pauls39coupe | -- 06-21-2017 @ 2:16 PM |
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The last set of studs I bought from Mac's were correct and good quality. Roy's bolts and studs are also well made. Go with ARP studs if you have the big bucks, their quality is second to none, but you pay the price. Speedway is one of the vendors for Best Gasket co. gaskets. We have had very good luck with Best Gaskets no matter where you buy them. They also make a big bore gasket set if your engine is punched out .060 or more. It will keep the gasket out of the combustion chamber. Isky valve springs made for performance flatheads are top quality, and won't wear out a stock cam. Be sure you order the correct length. If you can find brand name stock spring, they also will likely be OK. The problem we have seen with "valve kits" is that the springs must come in a barrel shipped from overseas. No quality control the length and spring pressure are all over the map. A flathead doesn't need a lot of spring pressure but some of these measure 20-22 lbs, then you are back to your original problem.
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| TomO | -- 06-22-2017 @ 9:55 AM |
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Check with one of the Regional Groups in NJ and New York. There is a truck parts supplier in your area that had loads of NOS Ford parts. Tom
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| chask | -- 07-31-2017 @ 11:47 AM |
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UPDATE: 7-31-17 Well guys, looks like problem solved thanks to the guys on this forum who responded to my questions including JayChicago, Coup, 40Cpe, and especially Pauls39Coupe and TomO. TomO called it in his post of 6/15 that the valve springs were the wrong ones! Thanks again for all your great help! Here are some more things I found since my last post: When I pulled the driver’s side head which had a mix of Grade 8 and Grade 2 bolts I found antifreeze between cylinders 6 & 7 on the head and head gasket. The bolts were very easy to remove so I think they were not properly torqued or the grade 2 bolts lost their torque. The heads were not mounted on the correct side of the engine. Doing some research it looks like the 81A-6049 head has a combustion chamber of 79cc’s and should be on the passenger side and the 81A-6050 has a combustion chamber of 81cc’s and should be on the Driver’s side. I measured the depth of the recession for the intake valves on both heads and verified that they were indeed different. Also, when mounted correctly the P/N on the head should be next to the fuel pump stand. I installed them on the correct sides. I replaced the bolts with studs and nuts from Roy Nacewicz and after much searching for NOS valve springs without any luck I went with new valve springs, keepers, and valve guide seals on the intake only (they were on both the intake and exhaust when removed) from Mac Van Pelt. I modified the cooling to the heads per TomO’s recommendation on 6/20/17 and flushed the heads and block. Reassembled valves, adjusted valve to lifter gap to .011” intake and .015” exhaust. Used Best Head Gaskets (59A Type, P/N 511G) and Intake manifold gasket bought at Mac Van Pelts, installed the heads and torqued per Tom’s post of 6/20/17. Reassembled the rest of the engine, changed the oil and antifreeze and started it up! Now runs smooth and quiet and starts on the first push of the starter. Checked the manifold vacuum and it reads exactly 20 inches Hg and is rock solid! Measured the temperatures of the heads (~166 Deg both sides) bottom radiator outlet (~128 Deg) and top Radiator inlet (~160 Deg) with an Infrared Thermometer just to make sure nothing got blocked. Attached is a picture of the completed engine and if nothing else it looks pretty good. So now that the engine runs, it's on to the brakes to make sure it stops. Someone changed the mechanical brakes to hydraulic brakes but left out the emergency brake and handle. Will have to figure that one out after pulling the rear drums to take a look. Thanks again for all your help, for without it, there is no way I could have solved this problem. It’s been a great learning experience!! Stay tuned for brake questions!!
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| pauls39coupe | -- 07-31-2017 @ 12:45 PM |
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Wow! The engine looks great! I'm glad we could be of some help. Thanks for posting the results, that helps everyone. Now will we see you at the Grand National in 2018? Paul
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| TomO | -- 07-31-2017 @ 1:49 PM |
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You do good work, Charlie. I am glad that the engine is working good now. It may just be the angle of the photo, but the cable from the starter switch to the starter looks like it may be too small to carry the current needed to crank the engine. It should be either a 0 or 1 gauge and it looks like a 5ga or 6ga. Tom
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| chask | -- 07-31-2017 @ 5:40 PM |
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Hi Tom and Paul, good to hear from you again. I don't think this old truck will be at the Nationals or any judging shows any time soon. As the saying goes "It looks good from afar but is far from good". Still needs lots of work to make it a reliable driver. Tom you are right the cable to the starter is undersized but for now does work since the engine starts immediately when you touch the starter button. I am also in the process of rewiring the whole truck with 14 AWG stranded wire (except for the larger gauge generator and ignition switch wiring) and will be putting it back to Positive Ground. The wiring in the truck was a mix of wire sizes and patches, most of which were undersized. It was also wired with Negative Ground with most of the required connections for negative ground changed except the coil. I changed that to match a Negative ground configuration at the start of this trouble shooting exercise. I have a running list of parts to order including the cables but that got put on hold to fix the engine problem so I will need to get back to that. Thank You once again for all your help and patience. I don't think I ever attached a picture of the truck so I will do that. Maybe someone out there will recognize it and know some history. I think it last lived in New York State but I bought it from Illinois. Charlie
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| 40cpe | -- 08-01-2017 @ 7:01 AM |
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That is a beautiful truck. I'm glad it found someone like you with perseverance to see it through the repairs it needs.
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| TomO | -- 08-01-2017 @ 7:17 AM |
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Charlie, I would suggest that you buy reproduction wiring harness from Rhode Island Wiring, rather than building your own. The wires will be the same size as the original ones and the correct color and length. It will be an afternoon's work to install the harness, even for an old guy like me that has to nap. Your truck looks great. I would be proud to have it in my garage. Tom
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| chask | -- 08-02-2017 @ 5:49 AM |
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Thanks Tom, I'll look into the harnesses at Rhode Island. Just started the brakes and the first one I looked at has a bad leaking wheel cylinder so will need to take care of the whole braking system before wiring. I forgot to mention something I did to prevent dirt from getting into the piston bores when cleaning the block face. I bought the 1/2" thick Foam Garden Kneeling Pads you can find in the Dollar stores and cut some over sized plugs (using a compass) to seal up the valve and piston holes. It worked really good keeping out all the scr*pings and when done you just vacuum the debris and lift the plugs out (starting with the valves) and any residual debris gets pulled out with the plug. The holes stayed nice and clean. Hopefully you won't tell me the foam will eat the block but maybe it will help others in the same situation as me. Attached is a picture. Note that one piston was taped but I later just moved the pistons so all 4 cylinders could hold a plug. Charlie
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| TomO | -- 08-02-2017 @ 7:46 AM |
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Charlie, did you check the label on the foam kneeling pads to make sure that they were compatible with cast iron? You never know with the imported foam, what it will attack. That is a great idea and you should submit it to the V-8 Times editor as a "It worked for me tip". Tom
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