| mzahorik | -- 06-09-2017 @ 9:28 AM |
|
I have a 1937 ForDor. It has a 59A replacement engine (maybe 1946?)and would like to improve it's performance. The complaint is, it is hard starting and pops thru the carburetor while starting and on acceleration. The spark plugs are black with a light covering of soot and looks oily. Here's what I've done so far. 1. New battery 2. New gasoline 3. Compression test cyl 1 = 70# cyl 2 = 78# cyl 3 = 74# cyl 4 = 76# cyl 5 = 70# cyl 6 = 80# cyl 7 = 80# cyl 8 = 88# 4. Fuel pump pressure >2# at idle 5. Spark quality seem poor. The spark on a gapped plug in open air looks weak and when using a test plug, the one where the spark needs to jump about 3/8" the ignition will not spark at all. Therefore I think my problem is with the ignition. Never having removed the distributor or doing any ignition work, also knowing it have not been touched for years, how should I approach this? I believe that the distributor needs to be removed. Thanks Mike
|
|
| carcrazy | -- 06-09-2017 @ 1:00 PM |
|
If the distributor hasn't been serviced in a long time, it is a good idea to remove it from the engine and take it to someone to have it completely rebuilt and setup on a distributor machine.
|
|
| MG | -- 06-09-2017 @ 1:40 PM |
|
Simple things first....Replace the condenser....
|
|
| JayChicago | -- 06-09-2017 @ 7:55 PM |
|
I agree. Sounds like you have spark, but weak spark. A bad condenser will give you weak spark, and changing the condenser is a simple/cheap first step.
|
|
| sarahcecelia | -- 06-10-2017 @ 9:09 AM |
|
Your compression is low should be a little over 100lbs. with only about 5-10 pounds variance between cylinders.make sure that you get about 3-5 compression strokes when doing it on each cylinder, and the engine should be warm when doing it.
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-11-2017 @ 10:26 AM |
|
Don't know of anyone with a distributor machine, so I'll try it myself. How hard can it be? Second, I do not have a replacement condenser, but I do have some replacement cap's for my Model T coils. I tried the V8 capacitor in a Model T coil and it seems to work fine. Then I tried the Model T cap on the V8 engine and it worked the same as with the original condenser. There is nothing I can do about the compression. What I was looking for was a bad valve, but these readings do not indicate that. So I think the distributor needs attention. But it is so dam hot out these past few days that I hate to be working in it. Once I get the '39 out of the garage maybe I put the '37 in there and start on the distributor. I can replace the points and condenser and give it a good cleaning and attempt to set the contacts. The spark plug wires were replaced recently and still seem OK. Keep you up to date as I work, thanks Mike
|
|
| len47merc | -- 06-11-2017 @ 12:29 PM |
|
Find someone with a distributor machine. As good as you think you are - and you may actually be - the 'machine' will surprise you with the improved performance you WILL notice over setting it up manually with feeler gauges on your bench. Once you've tasted the machine you'll never go back. Allen, Sun, etc., etc. Absolutely worth the cost of admission. Steve
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-11-2017 @ 12:47 PM |
|
I'll try, but I don't know anyone with a distributor machine. Where can I look for one? I have the distributor off and the first item I noticed is that the tab that turns the shaft has been brazed, as if it broke off at some time, odd. Next I tested the coil. It seems OK, but not the best I've seen. The coil will not jump my test spark plug that have a large gap, maybe it is too much for this coil. But it will jump a 5/16" gap rather nicely, but become poor at 3/8". The points are rather poor, so, I suppose I'll get some new points and a new condenser, just to be safe. Thanks Mike
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-11-2017 @ 3:46 PM |
|
Well..... just got our power back. Had a power outage, no AC no lights in the garage, so we went out for a meal. My next question is where is a good vendor for these ignition parts I need. I looked at Bob Drake, but did not find much. I would like some quality stuff, not Mac's. thanks Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 06-11-2017 @ 6:28 PM |
|
I would not try to replace the points without a distributor machine. The spacing of the points is all that controls the timing of the spark. I also don't think that the points are causing your weak spark. I don't know how you are testing the spark, but I suggest that you do it when the engine is idling by pulling one plug wire and holding it near a head nut. It should be a blue spark, about 1/2" long. Most auto supply stores should be able to get you a condenser, but I think that your problem is most likely the coil. Skip Haney rebuilds the original type coil. He also will replace the points and adjust them on his distributor machine http://www.fordcollector.com/ Tom
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-12-2017 @ 8:28 AM |
|
Tom, I think you are correct, that the coil is on the weak side. I'm testing the coil with an testing unit left over from an old gas station. It simulates a set of points, has a condenser and has an adjust spark gap. It's really kinda neat. You just connect it up to any coil, it will work on 6, 12 or 24 volts. Once connected, you flip a switch and then adjust the spark gap from small to large. It is very easy to see where the coil will spark well and where it will not. I currently have the distributor apart and soaking in the parts cleaner. The distributor is not the original, I know this because there is a sticker that says it is a factory rebuild unit. The advanced was gummed up and didn't move easily. The vacuum brake piston has a rubber bumper on the end of it and the rubber is flaking off. The vacuum piston will move, but will not hold a vacuum. I'm not sure whether this is OK, but I think it is. When I apply any vacuum from 15 to 20# the piston will hold it position off the plate, but anything below that the piston will move back. I am considering, once the parts are clean adjusting the points to 0.016" and trying the distributor. Reason being the points had a gap of over 0.050". I like the idea of sending the distributor/coil to Skip. I'll give him a call and find out more. Thanks for the help, Mike
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-13-2017 @ 7:27 AM |
|
I tried to contact Skip, but no answer so far. I also found a local V8 club, no contact there either. Anyway I got the distributor back together, nice and clean and all lubed up. Installed it with the beaker plate adjustment centered. The engine started right up, but knocked a little on acceleration. So I moved the breaker plate adjustment a little in the CCW direction and the knocking went away. Now the car starts pretty good and seems to run on the road a little better. I still think I need to freshen up the ignition parts and maybe a new or rebuilt coil. I found a vendor Dennis Carpenter. Seems he has the parts I need. Is this a good vendor? Thanks Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 06-13-2017 @ 7:46 AM |
|
Mike, the reason that I wanted to know the type of coil tester is the output spark intensity will vary with input voltage. My coil tester uses the coil voltage wire from the ignition switch, so that you will have the same input as when it is on the car. I don't know which distributor you have, the 1937 - 1941 type or the 1942 - 1948 type or what type of coil you are using. Knowing these things help with giving you diagnostic assistance. The bumper on the bottom of the vacuum brake is supposed to be leather. Replacements for the piston are available. The vacuum brake should be adjusted on a distributor machine, so that it slows the advance during acceleration and allows full advance when cruising. It can be adjusted by driving the car and listening for a ping when accelerating from 10mph in high gear. If you have the 42-48 type distributor, there is a procedure to adjust timing using 2 rulers. This will get you in the ball park. http://vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_engines_distr-timing.htm When the distributor is on the car, check the dwell at idle and when accelerating. The dwell should be 36 degrees +or - 1 degree and should not vary with changes in RPM. Tom
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-13-2017 @ 8:14 AM |
|
Tom, thanks for the response. My coil tester uses the car's battery as the supply. I've been using this tester for 50 some years and have confidence in it. I believe that I have the 37-41 style distributor. I have a 59A engine and it looks like a short block was used. All the original '37 accessories were kept. The bumper looks like rubber, but maybe leather, anyway it is flaking off and needs to be replaced. I checked the dwell and it is not correct. I had trouble setting one contact and this is most likely the trouble there. Tell me a little about the distributor machine. Does it spin the distributor so you can check the settings with the distributor off the car? It might be a neat project to build something like that. Also have you purchased from Dennis Carpenter, does he have quality parts? Thanks Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 06-13-2017 @ 10:06 AM |
|
Here is a photo showing the differences in the distributors. The round type coil usually has an internal resister and the Ford has an inline resister under the dash, you should not use both. If you have the early distributor, don't lose the adapter plug that goes between the distributor and the cam shaft. Here is a link to one model of the Sun machine in operation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBdVZrmV00 Tom
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-13-2017 @ 11:04 AM |
|
I have the 1937-41 distributor. Thanks for the picture. What adapter? Could that be why the distributor shaft has a tab brazed to it? Pictures I have seen show the distributor with a short tab. I have the dwell set for 35°, had to readjust the breaker plate, advance it a little. The engine runs quite well. Tell me a little about the vacuum advance piston. Should it hold vacuum when placed on it? Mine does not. I do not see any means of sealing thou, so I suspect it will not hold a vacuum. I see that Dennis Carpenter is offering an epoxy filled coil that would work on my car. Any opinions on that one vs a rebuild from Skip? Thanks Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 06-14-2017 @ 7:38 AM |
|
Here is a link to the distributor adapter. It extends the camshaft for the 37-41 didtsributor. http://dennis-carpenter.com/distributor-adapter/p/11A-6280/ I do not know anything about Dennis Carpenter coils. The rebuilt coils work very well and Skip has done hundreds of them. The vacuum brake piston will hold its position in use, I do not believe that it will hold a static vacuum. Tom
|
|
| len47merc | -- 06-14-2017 @ 9:18 AM |
|
Stay with Skip's rebuilt coils. Steve
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-14-2017 @ 1:06 PM |
|
Well.... I got the distributor back together and the engine seems to run good, so I took it out on the road and I has more zip and doesn't pop on acceleration like it did before, but after I stopped the engine, it would not start again. I think there is a temperature problem. Removed the distributor and tested the coil again and it came to me that I was not testing the coil with the ballast resistor in series. Boy, did that make a difference. The spark is only about 1/8" long before it starts to miss. So, now I'm sure the coil is the majority of my problem. I believe the popping was a timing issue, which was corrected. I have emailed and telephoned Skip Haney, but I do not get an answer. I wonder if he is on vacation of something?
|
|
| len47merc | -- 06-14-2017 @ 5:21 PM |
|
Stay with him - he'll get back with you. You can trust him (advance check payment, etc.). He took care of my original Ford script coil on my '47 (preventive maintenance rebuild) and I've confidence to drive the car across country. Last trip of slightly under 1,000 miles the spare parts box was a waste of gas to haul along - it had a back-up Ford script coil in it I had Skip redo for peace-of-mind. Likely a waste of money but it's there - likely will give it to someone at a meet that needs it to keep them running on a road trip for the meet. Again - stay with him. He'll get back with you. Steve
|
|
| Kens 36 | -- 06-14-2017 @ 8:11 PM |
|
Steve, The spare parts are problem PREVENTERS. If you didn't have them, you would need them. Skip's coils are the best. Ken
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 06-22-2017 @ 7:13 AM |
|
Finally, got a hold of Skip. He called me last night, the first words out of his mouth was "I'm still alive!". I told him "So am I". Anyway, the coil is on it's way to Florida. Maybe I'll have it next week or soon afterward. Let you know how it works out. Mike.
|
|
| ken ct. | -- 06-22-2017 @ 9:06 AM |
|
Popping back through the carb will blow out the power valve in there and allow gas to dump into the oil pan. Call Charlie NY on the ford barn on this ,that would be another problem you have. ken ct. We both have the proper PV for these carbs.
|
|
| sarahcecelia | -- 06-29-2017 @ 8:21 AM |
|
"Skip' Haney in Punta Gorda Florida does distributor work and has a machine to set them up. He has an ad in every issue of the club publication . I used him and got good results. I had a bad coil that he replaced, and He set up my spare dist. My '40 always ran good and started fairly easily, now it starts VERY EASILY and runs a little better than it did.The stud that holds the hot wire on the top of the coil was a little loose and I thought it could give me a problem down the road, so I sent it back to skip. He jumped on it right away, fixed it, and had it back to me in 3 days- and at no charge of course! He also rebuilds the old "tar filled" problem coils and fills them with epoxy! He'll take the time needed to talk you through your ignition problems. This guy is Great, and I highly recommend him!! Regards, Steve Lee
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-05-2017 @ 3:37 PM |
|
Received my ignition coil from Skip. When I tested the coil on my coil tester before Skip had it, the spark would barely jump 1/4", now it will go almost 3/4". That's 200% improvement. While I was waiting I changed some of the ignition wiring, hoping to improve the primary connections. I also purchased a new ballast resistor, the old one seemed to vary in ohms, depending on the stress placed on it. I was hoping to install this stuff this evening, but it is raining and I believe I caught sight of Noah and the ark, just down the road. Well maybe tomorrow. Mike
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-07-2017 @ 9:38 AM |
|
Well.... another minor set back. I can not get the dwell under 45 degrees. I think the rubbing block on the points are worn down to the point of not being able to allow proper adjustment. So I ordered some new points and a condenser. Also, I think I may have the wrong distributor on this engine? This would not surprise me, in that this engine is a replacement short block with other parts added to make a complete engine. Reason I say this is because the front of the engine block has three threaded holes to mount the distributor, yet the distributor has four mounting holes. Anyone know what's going on here? Thanks Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 07-08-2017 @ 8:44 AM |
|
Mike all 1937-1941 Ford V-8 distributors has 4 holes and the 85 HP engine timing cover had 3 holes. The same distributor was used on the V-8 60 HP engine and it had a different bolt pattern than the 85 HP had. Tom
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-10-2017 @ 1:20 PM |
|
Yup..... that's what I got! Henry wanted to be able to anything with anything. Today I received a new set of points from Dennis Carpenter. I measured the rubbing block and found the new ones to be 0.220" thick. My old ones are 0.209" and 0.201". I figure you can lose 0.001" point gap for each 0.001" you lose on the rubbing block. I think I should not have any trouble getting the proper dwell now. Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 07-11-2017 @ 6:27 AM |
|
Mike, there is no good way to time the spark when you have the 1937 type distributor without a distributor machine. Setting the points for .015" will bring timing into the ball park and the engine will start and run, but to get the best performance, the distributor should be set up on a distributor machine. Skip Haney does this as well as a few other V-8 vendors. Tom
|
|
| sarahcecelia | -- 07-11-2017 @ 10:25 AM |
|
When a motor pops through the carburetor it usually means the timing is too far advanced.It is firing when the intake valve is still open. It could also be sticking valve(s). Check the timing and the compression. Regards, Steve Lee
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-11-2017 @ 11:21 AM |
|
Well, the saga continues. I still am having trouble with the dwell. This time I believe the problem is the breaker plate. Seems the points pivot pins are badly worn, at least on is. I was thinking of brazing the pin and then grinding it down round again, or try to find a better plate. I checked Drake and Carpenter, but they do not sell the breaker plate. Ideas, thanks Mike
|
|
| len47merc | -- 07-11-2017 @ 11:34 AM |
|
Mike - this is one of those things that I've been through where had I just bitten the bullet and sent it to a 'Skip Haney' in the first place I'd have been $$$'s and significant time ahead of the game, and the car would be running by now better than I could've accomplished myself. Assure you there is no substitute for having it rebuilt by someone who's done it hundreds of times and set up properly on a Sun or Allen machine. Apologies for being so blunt. Spoken from experience. Steve
|
|
| TomO | -- 07-11-2017 @ 5:16 PM |
|
Mike, are you trying to get one set of points to provide 36 degrees of dwell? it will never happen. The combined dwell is 36 degrees with the dwell meter connected to the condenser tab on the coil. Send your distributor to Skip or another vendor that has a distributor machine to set the points correctly. If the pivot point is worn on the distributor plate, they can provide one at a reasonable cost. Tom
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-12-2017 @ 7:58 AM |
|
No, I have both sets of points in the distributor. I have tested the dwell on the engine and in a test jig I have built. What is happening is that the moving contact and arm turn on the breaker plate pin. This pin, one is much worse than the other, is worn probably 0.020" into the pin. This makes the moving point contact change position each time it operates. So no matter how the points are adjusted, the gap and dwell keep changing, because the wear pattern on the pin is deep and tapered. If Skip had it, I'm sure he would replace the breaker plate. So, I'm going to do the same and try again. You can't learn anything by sending it off. Besides, I'll having fun playing with it. Thanks for the help, let you know how it works out, Mike
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-12-2017 @ 3:16 PM |
|
Today, I successfully repaired the pivot pins on my old breaker plate. Added a little braze to the wear spots and ground them circular again. I was concerned about the plastic coil contact part, but that came thru OK. Reassembled the distributor and now I can easily get 34 degrees of dwell. So I'm confident that I can properly adjust the distributor. But since the braze is soft and most likely will wear away quickly, I found that MAC's has a new breaker plate. Generally I don't like to use MAC's but since I could not find anyone else with this part I bit the bullet. So maybe next week I'll be back in business with a properly adjusted distributor and a better running engine. Thanks Mike
|
|
| MG | -- 07-12-2017 @ 3:44 PM |
|
Given your new found expertise and persistence, I've packed 3 distributors to send off to you. All I need is your address. You can further hone your skills at no cost to me and I won't charge you to practice on them. Don't worry about the shipping costs, they're on me. :o) *:D big grin....
|
|
| len47merc | -- 07-12-2017 @ 4:54 PM |
|
Mike - I greatly appreciate your steadfast resolve and perseverance in going through your distributor. I too went through it multiple times with feeler gauges, old school dwell meters, etc., and had the car running 'great' (or so I thought!). Learned a lot in the process and only begrudgingly decided to drive it myself the 200+ miles one-way to then 88-year old John Shelor in Radford, Va. to have him prove to me I wasn't as good as I thought. He gave me an education on rebuilding the distributor (new bushings, aligned, etc.), allowed me to perform much of the process only after showing me how to complete each step, etc.. This ended with the distributor in his Allen machine where the points, dwell, timing and new leather pad vacuum brake were all set to spec. To spec. Spec. I could see - not feel(er gauge) - it was to spec. Bottom line I left beyond impressed, more knowledgeable yes, and beyond impressed - yet still didn't believe the car couldn't run any better than I had it before heading to see him. I was wrong. I can rebuild this myself now for sure, yet without an Allen or Sun machine you can never be certain you can get the total dwell, timing and vacuum brake pressure correct and to spec. Lots and lots of luck involved to get it right/dead nuts without this equipment. Again, I appreciate your enthusiasm, drive and personal pursuit of knowledge through asking your questions, research and hands-on effort. After you're through send it to a John Shelor or Skip Haney - or better yet purchase a fully restored back-up unit from either - and see if you can tell the difference. I'll be surprised if you can not. Cheers - Steve
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-13-2017 @ 7:58 AM |
|
MG, that sounds like a good deal to me? Len, maybe so, but I buy my old cars to have something to do in my old age. I find it rather enjoyable to figure out what is going on and attempt to repair it. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but no matter, there is nothing depending on this car any way. It would be interesting to see what these distributor machines do. I am aware of Allen equipment, I have an Allen electric Model T HCCT. You really do need one of these to properly set a Model T coil. I'll have to keep my eye open for one of those more modern machines for these V8 distributors. Well.... disappointment this morning, I received a new condenser from Carpenters yesterday. This morning I was installing it on the distributor and noticed that the ground strap is soldered onto the wrong side. The screw terminal of the condenser had a flat which engages the distributor terminal, so it will not spin when tightening the screw. With the condenser in this position the ground strap is pointing away from mounting screw of the coil. I'll have to un-solder the strap and install it correctly. Rats, Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 07-14-2017 @ 8:27 AM |
|
Mike, I suggest that you call Carpenter and explain the problem before you resolder the grounding strap. This problem has been going on for several years and unless the vendor receives complaints, it will go on for several more years. Tom
|
|
| mzahorik | -- 07-14-2017 @ 12:07 PM |
|
Tom, I emailed Carpenters, but no response. But..... I had a revelation, my original Ford script condenser has a copper ground strap that bends 90 degrees and is grounded under one of the coil mounting screws. So, I thought this one should be the same. Except the grounding hole in the new condenser, where the grounding screw goes is much larger, for a 1/4 20 bolt. After a little thinking this model has the ground strap go down, instead of bending and is grounded under one of the distributor mounting bolts. So I did not re solder anything, in fact I'm still using the old condenser. So......... I got the distributor mounted on the engine and I noodled the dwell to exactly 36 degrees. The engine started almost immediately and ran pretty good. I have the timing screw at the mid point. After turning off the engine and trying to start it again in maybe 10 minutes, nothing. RATS! So, yesterday I pulled the Stromberg 97 off and dis assembled it and set to soaking in the cleaner. This morning I check all the passages and check valves, all seemed OK. BUT, the float level was quite low. So I figured that after turning off the engine the fuel in the carb evaporated. I set the float level to 1/2" assembled the carb, put it on the engine and it immediately started. And restarted after being off for 10 minutes. Now this car runs like an old car should. It has more power, although not a bunch, accelerates well and starts good. Now if only I could get those d*mn mechanical brakes to work better. Thanks a million, Mike
|
|
| TomO | -- 07-15-2017 @ 7:49 AM |
|
The new condenser is the correct one for your 1937 Ford. The condenser is grounded by the upper right distributor mounting screw. The condenser that was on the car is used with 1941 coils with the top riveted on. Originally from Ford the capacitance was different, but the vendors use the same condenser and just modify the strap. Tom
|
|
| EFV-8 Club Forum : | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum |
| Topic: | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=10850 |