| parrish | -- 10-09-2009 @ 8:09 AM |
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There used to be a thread relating to water pump replacement and this is a follow-up question: the "hidden" bolt inside the pump...is there any gotcha associated with its removal? I am removing my grill and radiator for better access, but I did inspect the hidden bolt and it looks pretty corroded in there! Also, I have new motor mounts for the same replacement...any heads-up on replacing those? I plan to very slowly jack up the oil pan with a large wooden support underneath it...thanks for your help!
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| deluxe40 | -- 10-09-2009 @ 9:28 AM |
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Soak it with your favorite penetrating oil for a night or two (I use Liquid Wrench but others report even more powerful solutions). Remove all of the other bolts, saving the tough one for last (sometime you can get the pump to wiggle back and forth a little to get started - it won't move much because the impellers hit the block). Most importantly, use a SIX sided socket. This is worth a special trip to the tool store, if you don't already have one.
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| supereal | -- 10-09-2009 @ 9:29 AM |
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Use a six-point socket when removing the "hidden" bolt. This will lessen the possibility that a rusted bolt head will round off. In spite of fears, those bolts seldom present a problem. We substitute a stainless bolt from a hardware store when we remount the pumps. With a proper extension on your wrench, it isn't usually necessary to pull the radiator. As for motor mounts, after you have removed the bolts that secure the mounts to the frame. jack up the engine just enough to remove the old mounts. Be sure to assemble the new mounts correctly, insert the bolts, and lower the engine. Tighten the mounts until the rubber starts to bulge, and secure with a new cotter pin.
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| ford38v8 | -- 10-09-2009 @ 9:36 AM |
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Parrish, you'd be surprised at the number of guys over the years who have made the "gotcha" mistakes that you have already discovered. With your forethought so far to this point, no doubt you'd complete the job with no problem, but I'll put forth my thoughts on the subject anyway: For the hidden bolt, use a 6 point rather than a 12 point socket. This will help prevent damage to the bolt head. Use of an impact wrench will insure it's safe removal. You'll want to replace this bolt with one of stainless steel, in the exact same length. (A longer bolt will bottom out before making a seal). Water pump gaskets are sometimes shrunken to the point that they don't fit properly. Determine that you have good gaskets, and secure them to the pumps with a dab of grease. some guys use a sealant, which is OK, but makes it difficult to clean the block surface for the next pump change. Sealant may also be squeezed into the small oil delivery hole, which is not good. Use a headless bolt of a longer length as a locating stud for pump placement. This stud may be removed after the other bolts are in place. If you hadn't removed your radiator and grille, you'd see that this is almost a required step to prevent damage to the gasket. For the motor mount, be sure to use a bottom washer having the shallow cup that effectively prevents the rubber from herniating. Some suppliers don't furnish this cup washer. Tighten the mount till the rubber begins to swell, and use a cotter pin. If your '39 is a Standard, it will have a short straight lower hose, which is extremely difficult to install with both radiator and engine mounted securely. Before you install the motor mounts, install the hose on the pumps, then slowly lower the engine while installing the hoses on the radiator. For this, I use silicone grease, which helps preserve the hoses, and facilitates the installation. some guys use sealant, but I consider that if your hoses need a sealant, then you haven't installed them correctly and they are likely to fail regardless. The hose clamps should be of the modern type for the best compression seal possible. If you intend to have your car point judged, the modern clamps can be replaced later with the vintage type, after the rubber has taken a set. I also differ from some on the use of antifreeze. I don't live in an extreme climate, so I never need it, but most guys don't drive their Fords in freezing weather anyway, and store indoors in the winter, so I don't believe any of us needs antifreeze. Rather than antifreeze, I use a bottle of anti- corrosion/water pump lubricant. I could go on and on, but your question is covered, I believe. Alan
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| parrish | -- 10-09-2009 @ 6:07 PM |
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thanks to deluxe40,supereal,ford38v8(Alan)! I'm soaking the hidden bolt (and the other 3, although they probably aren't corroded considering the protective dirty grease layer) with WD40 for a couple days. I used a nice sharp flat screwdriver to gently scrape the sides of the big head "hidden bolt" and they both look fairly "squared off" on the head. One pump has blue paint still on the leg and the other pump is red (even on the pulley). I suspected the red was newer and really eyeballed it more. I found that the nut on the red side motor mount is riding a little higher and the hidden bolt looks not quite as square. Also, the inlet doesn't look as cleanly manufactured inside as the blue one, so I'm guessing the red pump is a replacement from years ago...Final question: should I heat the hidden bolts before trying to twist 'em? Seems like it couldn't hurt...
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| 40guy | -- 10-09-2009 @ 6:15 PM |
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Ah yes, the "hidden" bolt. Saw a block broke into three pieces once upon a time by someone who did't know about the "hidden" bolt and proceeded to pry off the water pump with a large screw driver and hammer. 25 years ago and I still have the car. Restored now though.
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| ford38v8 | -- 10-09-2009 @ 10:56 PM |
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Parrish, NO, do not heat the bolts. They will not give you a problem at all. You shouldn't even have to soak them with penetrating oil. Do use a 6 point socket, though. Alan
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| parrish | -- 10-10-2009 @ 4:07 PM |
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thanks, alan! I'm going to use the allthread bolt idea for aligning the gasket & pump. That's a good tip and I'll pass it along! Having the grille and radiator out of the way really opens up the work area and I think I'll have the radiator pressure tested as long as it's out of the car. I bought the motor mounts from Drake and they look like the right design and quality.
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| GM | -- 10-11-2009 @ 6:02 PM |
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Make sure any replacement bolts are exactly the same length as the ones removed. There have been several cases of longer bolts being used that bottomed out in the threaded hole before pulling the pump up tight. Clean the mounting surfaces good and only use a thin film of grease on both sides of the gasket. I have also seen many cases of the oil hole plugged with silicon, stay away from that. G.M.
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| fortyfordguy | -- 10-13-2009 @ 7:27 AM |
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Go to SEARS and purchase one of their sets of bolt removers...designed for nasty, corroded, rounded-off bolt heads. They look like deep sockets but have special curved ridges inside. Pick the size for the bolt you want to remove. Tap it onto what's left of the bolt, then twist off with a socket wrench like normal. The tighter you turn (unscrew) the tighter the SEARS tool bites into the old bolt. I've used the tool on a number of badly corroded water pump bolts and never failed to get it out. No heat was needed. Some WD40 or other penetrant fluid never hurts.
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| parrish | -- 10-14-2009 @ 8:27 AM |
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After all my concerns with that "hidden bolt", I used a six-sided socket and a big half inch drive long wrench for leverage and it loosened right up no problem! I had removed the radiator and grille (highly recommended) so I had plenty of muscle room and leverage. The bigger payback for the workspace was putting the Drake replacements back on as the driver side unit was slightly off on the inside leg and wouldn't flush up to the mounting plate. I had to round it off a little with a grinder. The other 3 bolt holes were also too tight and I had to ream them out just sligtly to thread the original bolts back in. Without the extra work room to see what the problem was, it would have been a much bigger headache. But being able to sit down in front with a flashlight and eyeball the bolt hole alignment made all the difference. I used Drakes stainless replacements for the hidden bolt and verified their length before threading them in. I took the radiator to a good shop and he recommended trying it "as is" because any alternative cleaning might make it leak. I'm going to test it for water flow top to bottom later today. There was a fair amount of rustly scale deposit inside the engine water intake port and I cleaned it out as best I could, but I am concerned about the condition of the water jacket. I thought about trying flush it out by routing water down through the heads before mounting the pumps, but wasn't sure if that would accomplish anything so I went ahead with the install...I can take them off easily enough if the flushing would make a difference???
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| TomO | -- 10-14-2009 @ 8:59 AM |
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Flushing will remove most of the loose crud in the block and I would recommend that you do it before re-installing the radiator. I am disappointed to hear that Drake's new pumps did not fit correctly without minor modifications. I would write to Bob and let him know your experience. It will help him make quality control modifications. Tom
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| supereal | -- 10-14-2009 @ 9:31 AM |
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For the most part, the best you can do is back-flush the block to remove the suspended particles. You apply water thru the heads, and allow it to flush the junk out of the lower block inlets. Don't expect a whole lot of it. You can do this with the pumps in place. Rust and scale is usually firmly attached to the rough inner surface of the block, and must be mechanically dislodged when the engine is apart. Back flushing is also a good practice with your radiator, as much of the crud collects in the top tank.
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| parrish | -- 10-22-2009 @ 7:57 AM |
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Well...I called Bob Drake's tech support and they told me that they are fully aware of the "bad fit" issue. According to Drake, Ford actually had 2 blueprints for the water pump footprint. Drake claims to have consulted the other manufacturers (Carpenter was mentioned) and were advised to choose the least reported problem blueprint schematic. So Drake picked the least offensive according to the other manufacturers (Carpenter mentioned again). Drake claims that out of the roughly 475 water pumps they have sold, only 3 customers have called with this "bad fit" issue. What I don't understand (and neither could the tech) is that the passenger side pump bolt pattern was ok (I still had to slightly grind the inner top leg of the pump body to draw it up tight), but the driver side bolt pattern was off by about 1/16, which is the amount the tech mentioned early on before I had told him of my experience. I also had to significantly grind the inner top leg...much more than the passenger side. I had to ream the bolt holes on the driver side pump body to thread the bolts. Obviously Drake should forewarn potential customers or provide details of their chosen pump footprint...
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| alanwoodieman | -- 10-22-2009 @ 8:05 AM |
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Oh for the quality MADE in INDIA parts, makes you just to want to scream Ford had it right--spurious parts!!
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| parrish | -- 12-07-2009 @ 8:14 AM |
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Finally tested Drakes replacement pumps yesterday (working great) and I will leave this topic with my rookie advice: remove the grille plus radiator and USE ALAN'S HEADLESS BOLT APPROACH! If I hadn't, and considering the "bad fit" issue acknowledged by Drake, I would still be standing there swearing!
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| supereal | -- 12-07-2009 @ 8:26 AM |
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Be aware that nearly all vendors will tell you that no one, or a very few, have complained about parts that don't fit. It is baloney. When I found that Drake's trunk lid hinges didn't resemble the correct type in any way, they told me "you must have an odd car" because no one else complained. I don't, and had to remake the hinges using parts from the damaged pair, as they couldn't supply the correct ones, even though their catalog plainly states that they fit convertibles. Why they wouldn't confirm that the pump castings were correct before production is a mystery, but not entirely surprising.
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