| Steve S | -- 04-09-2010 @ 4:35 PM |
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How much force should a rear hub require to pull? I've removed the nut and washer, flipped the nut around and partially threaded it back on to protect the threads, and installed a puller. I put a 150 lbs-ft impact wrench on it and the hub won't budge. While still under tension, I smacked the end a few times with a sledge. Still won't budge. Am I missing something here? With the outer seal removed, everything looks wet inside around the keyway, so I assume it isn't rusted or anything. Photo of my puller attached.
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-09-2010 @ 5:48 PM |
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Steve, There is no end to the different unique methods of removing the Ford hub, many of them, no, most of them, including yours, is damaging to the axle, the differential gears, your temper, and the safety of anyone close enough to get hurt. The only tool to use is the original one, designed and made by KR Wilson for Ford. The KR Wilson ABV-156 Hub Puller is being reproduced, and is advertised in the V8 Times. This puller is self centering, (yours is off kilter) requires only the hand tightening of a wrench, and at most, a light tap with a hammer. In all fairness, I'll say that despite the damage you've likely done to your axle with the puller you have, The KR Wilson may not have gotten the hub off either: It looks as if your hub has some bigtime rust issues on the perimeter, which means also that the drum won't turn, as the emergency brake was set, and the shoes rusted in place. I have run into this problem in a junk yard, trying to extract an axle. I ended up using a torch. I hope you can release your shoes without going to that extreme. Alan
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| Steve S | -- 04-09-2010 @ 6:02 PM |
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The drum actually turns freely. The 'rust' around the outside is more grease than anything. This truck was fairly well maintained before storage so not a single screw, bolt or nut has required more than a wrench and hand effort to release. I guess I'm lucky, plus I live in a really dry area and the truck was found in a nearby garage. It's odd that the photo makes the puller look off center (maybe lens distortion), but in person it's actually dead straight. There is a guy on eBay selling pullers for $55 that look similar to the KR Wilson tool. Anyone have any experience with them? It's 1/3 the price and appears to do the same thing. This message was edited by Steve S on 4-9-10 @ 6:16 PM
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| parrish | -- 04-09-2010 @ 7:40 PM |
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A long long time ago, I was trying to remove the rear hubs on my first '39 and I didn't know that the shoes had to be fully retracted for any chance of success. The reason is that if the drum face is worn down to any significant degree, the shoes will catch on the unworn lip of the facing...hope that helps.
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| Steve S | -- 04-09-2010 @ 9:43 PM |
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I had that thought briefly, but the hubs / drum isn't moving at all. I assume that if the brake shoes were holding it then the drum would move at least a little bit.
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-09-2010 @ 9:56 PM |
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Parrish, You're absolutely right about the lip worn into the drum. I failed to mention this as I assumed that the drum/shoes were locked in rust. On an unknown drum, you really should consider that it may have a ridge. Alan
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-09-2010 @ 10:11 PM |
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Steve, The drum is tapered, and is an interference fit on the axle. When once you do put enough pressure on it, it will pop with a bang. I would think that the puller you have should work in a pinch if you use a wrench instead of an impact wrench. Put a wheel on it and lower it to the ground to stop it from turning while you turn the wrench. The axle nut is not sufficient to protect the axle. You are using the threads, which are taking a beating. The KRW that I spoke of has a cap nut that bottoms out on the axle, thereby taking the load instead of the threads. The cost of the KRW is an investment. A replacement axle will cost much more. Alan
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-09-2010 @ 10:12 PM |
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Parrish, You're absolutely right about the lip worn into the drum. I failed to mention this as I assumed that the drum/shoes were locked in rust. On an unknown drum, you really should consider that it may have a ridge. Alan
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| kubes40 | -- 04-10-2010 @ 6:24 AM |
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The lip that is almost certain to be worn on the inside (edge) of the drum will not keep it from coming loose from the taper of the axle. As others have said, a proper puller is a necessity. Your puller should be adequate but not nearly as good as a KR Wilson type. Your puller is applying pressure to the proper area. Also, an air wrench is out of the question. You must apply steady (constant) torque and a lot of it. Taper fits are extremely strong in design. Stand on the bar if need be.. It'll 'pop'. This message was edited by kubes40 on 4-10-10 @ 6:26 AM
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| efv8 | -- 04-10-2010 @ 6:38 AM |
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just recently encountered the same problem!I used a K.R.wilson with no sucsess! called a fellow v8er he came over with the same style puller you are using with pressure applied we used a rosebud tip on a oxy,acetylene torch heating as rapidly as possible on the tapered section it broke free! This message was edited by efv8 on 4-10-10 @ 6:39 AM
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| TomO | -- 04-10-2010 @ 7:17 AM |
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Steve, if you put the wheel back on, lower the car back onto its wheels, then jack up the opposite wheel, your drum will come off with little persuasion. I have used this method many time on stubborn drums and have been successful every time. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 4-10-10 @ 7:17 AM
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-10-2010 @ 7:48 AM |
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HI first thing, does the brake drum spin ?!!!! make sure you BACK OFF the Brake Adjustment,!!!!! you can apply a litte heat, even a GOOD HEAT GUN , will help in the brake drum breaking loose, this might take a little while,and hit the brake drum hub, while turning it around, you can also loosen the nut holding the drum a few turns,and put the cotter key back in, move the car back and forth.in 1st and reverse you should HEAR it break loose, If you used a puller and it did not break loose something else could be holding in on,matter whomade it, maybe also using RUST BUSTER,the GOOD STUFF,soaking overnight, hope this helps,37RAGTOPMAN
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| supereal | -- 04-10-2010 @ 8:20 AM |
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From your post, I can't tell whether the hub hasn't come off the tapered axle, and is loose, or it has come loose and the drum refuses to come off. If it is the latter, someone may have forgotten to reinstall the clips that hold the shoes to the backing plate. In that case, you are in for a struggle. I once spent most of a day working a drum off for that reason. The Winfield Tool Works puller is a bit pricey, but an essential tool for removing hubs without damage. Using a knockoff sometimes works, but only if the opposite wheel is off the ground. A three legged puller can bend or break the drum. The Winfield has a protector for the threads on the axle, and if properly tensioned, and given a tap, it really works. Hammering on the end of the axle will ruin it, or damage the internals of the rear end.
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| Steve S | -- 04-10-2010 @ 8:53 AM |
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To clarify a few points raised... Yes, the drum spins freely. No, the taper has not yet broken loose. I tried heating the end of the drum with a torch, not too hot but hot to the touch. Maybe I didn't get enough torque on the puller with the impact wrench. I'll try again with a big breaker bar. I'm just concerned with breaking the puller jaws, especially since it isn't mine! Sounds like I need to order a correct puller. Anyone have experience with this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150411693269
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| kubes40 | -- 04-10-2010 @ 9:29 AM |
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Steve, If I were you I'd step up and buy the KR Wilson puller. A finer puller has not been made. They are reproduced. I recall (perhaps incorrectly) they are about $200. Well worth the investment.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-10-2010 @ 10:14 AM |
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hi STEVE S. wanted clarify a few things, DO not hit the axle from the end, it will do damage the end and is possible to RUIN the axle end,and parts in the rear itself,spider gears and such, SOAK with PB BLASTER,overnight, you can hit from the side on the tapered point of the tapered hub,[ not with a 20 # sledge ] if you have a proffessional air hammer.WOULD BE BETTER, you can also hit from the side, while someone rotates the hub, this usually SHAKES and Breaks them free.were safty glasses.and ear protection, this should not do any damage to the rear, but mark up the hub, I had a 39 MERC with frozen hubs and it took quite a while to get free, and was able to take apart the rear end and check out and put back together, do not hit the brake drum itself. the puller on e-bay, looks light duty to me,and is welded, were should be one piece. IF the puller you used did not move it,.I doubt any puller will work, maybe I am wrong, but removed many brake drums, the way I explained, and HAD NO PROBLEMS I would really like to hear how you removed the brake drums, my 3 cents worth 37RAGTOPMAN
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| Steve S | -- 04-10-2010 @ 10:18 AM |
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I was really wary of hitting the end of the axle, but three different people told me that's how they got theirs off, and that it's a common thing on these Fords. I should have listened to my gut instinct. So now that I'm hit the end of the axle numerous time with a big hammer, what type of damage can I check for inside the axle, once I get it opened up?
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-10-2010 @ 10:31 AM |
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HI Steve S its funny, they sell hub knockers that screw on the axles and you hit them from the end, they still sell them, and they never tell you it can damage the rear, they sold these for 100 years, I think it has to do with how hard you hit them. I would also use heat , seems to work the best and fastest, it depends how many TOOLS you have an how much money you want to spend on them, paying $200.00 for one tool to take something apart maybw one time is good if you have DEEP POCKETS, or do it more often, TRY the HEATING METHOD,AND PB BLASTER RUST BUSTER most likley rusted from the INSIDE, MY3CENTSWORTH 37RAGTOPMAN LET HEAR HOW YOU MADE OUT
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| supereal | -- 04-10-2010 @ 12:01 PM |
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$170 seems like a lot of money, until you price replacement axles. You can reduce the cost by omitting the wooden box, to $155, which includes shipping. I've had mine for a very long time, and paid about $50 for it years ago, as I recall, but it has long since earned that back, and more. There is just no other puller as effective. The phone number for Winfield is (631)928-3316.
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-10-2010 @ 4:59 PM |
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Steve, the damage you can do to the axle is the very end itself. I've seen axle ends that have mushroomed from sledge hammers, axles with no threads left from hitting on a castle nut, and even some that have been bent cockeyed. All these make the axle useless for future use, but the internal gears in the banjo can also be damaged by hitting the end of the axle. As everyone has said, the KRW is the best investment in tools you can make. Alan
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| Steve S | -- 04-11-2010 @ 12:34 AM |
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The axle end was not damaged thankfully. I was very careful to protect the threads from damage or mushrooming. If I end up opening the diff then I'll have a look at the gears in there for obvious damage. Hopefully I'll be lucky. I was using one of those knocker tools too, that a neighbor lent me. Just today I think I found a guy locally with a KRW tool that I can borrow, so I'll wait to try again until I get it. I honestly don't think it's rusted, I think maybe I just didn't get enough pulling force on there with the tool I was using. There is fluid coming out of the area around the threads so it should be clean and lubricated in there... I hope!
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| TomO | -- 04-11-2010 @ 8:48 AM |
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Steve, if you use the method of having the car weight on the wheel that you are trying to pull, you will be surprised at how easy the wheel will come off. I carry an axle knocker in my tool kit for emergency use and have removed a wheel using an 16 ounce hammer, by having the weight on the wheel being pulled. Tom
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| supereal | -- 04-13-2010 @ 10:48 AM |
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Be aware that many of the "knockoffs" now being sold are not hardened, and the interior threads will collapse when they are first struck. This can damage the threaded end of the axle. If you buy one, check it with a file to see if it is, indeed, hardened.
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| 40guy | -- 04-13-2010 @ 1:17 PM |
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I have the type hub puller with 3 legs that uses the lug nuts and studs to secure it. It is old as the hills but works EVERY time. Long ago I had a machine shop put a centering nipple on the end of it. This is very important that the tool be centered. I have never hit the axle nor ever used a K.R. Wilson tool.
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