| gcraigstep | -- 05-13-2017 @ 12:13 PM |
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I inherited my fathers restored 1940 Ford Pickup. I've been unable to get it started after many years of sitting. I have no spark at the plugs. I'm only getting around 1 vdc with no fluctuation of voltage at the coil with the switch on and when trying to start. When I disconnect the coil lead I do have good battery voltage. Is this indicating the points are not opening? Does the distributor need to be removed to set the points or replace them? A little different set up from the 60's cars I've messed with. I rely a lot on You Tube for dyi.....apparently not much out there on distributors for the Flatheads.
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| MG | -- 05-13-2017 @ 12:25 PM |
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You're a lucky guy!....What a beautiful truck that is! I'm thinking that the distributor needs to be removed and inspected. Cleanup the rotor and points as necessary.... When removing the distributor, cut a piece of cardboard to fit the inside of the radiator to protect its cooling fins while you are working in that tight area.... This message was edited by MG on 5-13-17 @ 12:32 PM
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| trjford8 | -- 05-14-2017 @ 7:53 AM |
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My suspicion would be the coil. You should have at least 3-4 volts coming to the coil. Also are you getting fuel to the carb? Very nice pickup! You've inherited one of the most desirable Ford pickups ever built. This message was edited by trjford8 on 5-14-17 @ 7:54 AM
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| sarahcecelia | -- 05-14-2017 @ 2:18 PM |
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Yes, you have to remove the distributor. If you take one of the caps off and tie it back with string to the radiator hose, you can crank the motor with (the key on of course) and see if the points have spark at the points.. If they don't, you take (3 bolts) out to remove the distributor.Take both caps off first and tie them back with string as aforementioned to get them out of the way,. When you have it out you can check the continuity with an ohm meter at the points( either side) one at time with them closed! (If you don't have continuity, try cleaning them with 400 - 800 "wet or dry" sandpaper, then pass a paper business card through them to remove any dirt left by cleaning them.(These are tricks I learned working as a mechanic in the 60's) Then use the ohm meter again to see if you got any continuity.If you do re-install and see if you have spark at the end of the plug leads.I had never done one either, and with a couple of phone calls, to Skip Haney ( he's got an ad in the booklet from the club)he got me through it, and now it's all easy to me! I had a bad coil. If yours is bad I caution you to only buy one from Skip! Most others out there are "duds!"you can also send your dist. to him to have it rebuilt.When you reinstall the dist., be sure to "key it " to the crank shaft. Look at it; the key is OFFSET and you have to align it with the slot in the crank,or you'll do some damage to the dist., or the crank! I hope this helps you! You can do it!!! Good Luck!! Regards, Steve Lee
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| JayChicago | -- 05-15-2017 @ 12:02 AM |
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I would recommend that you not touch the distributor yet. Its a very unusual piece for someone not familiar with the old Fords. I know, I am new to the flatheads, and that distributor is like nothing I ever saw before. And I think you have already identified your problem as being ahead of the coil & distributor. You measured 1 volt at the input to the coil. As noted by others, it should be around 3 volts. 1 volt input is insufficient for the coil to induce a spark. This does not indicate points are not opening. You should get 3 volts to the coil with the points closed. It could possibly be due to a shorted coil, but I suspect something wrong upstream of the coil. I would look at the ignition circuit ahead of the coil for something that is producing an unwanted voltage drop. There is a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit that should be producing a 3 volt drop, to give 3 volts at the coil. But the rest of the circuit, switch and wiring, should not be more than a few tenths of a volt. To make resistance/voltage-drop checks, you need the circuit live, current flowing. So this is done with engine stopped, ignition switch on. But switch-on/engine stopped is hard on the coil and points, so I would keep the switch off until you are ready to take each reading, then turn the switch off again right after. Check the voltage at "batt" (input) terminal of ignition switch, which should be about .1 volt less than battery voltage. Then with switch on, check the switch's "coil" (output) terminal. There should not be more than .1 volt dropped thru the switch. (On my car I found a full 1 volt drop across a poor copper contact in the switch) Check voltage in and out of the ballast resistor. The resistor is about 2 inch long wire-wound ceramic, located on the fire wall behind the instrument panel on cars, probably same on trucks. BE CAREFUL not to touch the resistor itself! It gets super hot, will burn your fingers! Input voltage should be same as output terminal on the switch, or maybe .1 volt less due to loss thru wire/connectors. Then check resistor's output voltage, which should be 3.0 to 3.2 volts less than input voltage. Finally check voltage at the coil, which should be same as output side of resistor, or maybe .1 volt less due to wire/connectors. Hopefully something will jump out as the cause of the low voltage to the coil. This message was edited by JayChicago on 5-15-17 @ 10:55 AM
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| TomO | -- 05-15-2017 @ 6:30 AM |
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Welcome to the Forum. Do you have the stock Ford type coil mounted on top of the distributor or a coil mounted elswhere with a high tension lead going to the distributor? If you are not sure what you have , please post a photo. You could have a shorted condenser, points or coil. If you have the stock coil, connect you meter between the condenser contact on the coil and ground. Use the Ohm meter function and turn the engine over with the ignition off. If the meter shows constant continuity, remove the coil (the upper passenger side bolt of the distributor must be removed in order to remove the coil) and repeat the test by putting your probe on the large copper contact where the coil supplies voltage to the points. This will tell you whether it is the condenser-coil combination or points. Check the condenser with your ohmmeter. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 5-15-17 @ 6:57 AM
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| MGG | -- 05-15-2017 @ 7:50 AM |
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Doesn't the resistor have to be hot in order for you to get an accurate reading of how well it is working? If so, what is the best way to do this, especially if the engine won't start?
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| gcraigstep | -- 05-15-2017 @ 10:48 AM |
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Jay I'm a little confused on your reply. When I have the lead to the Coil disconnected from the Coil the voltage I'm receiving "upstream" is battery 6 volts. Are you saying this should be 3 volts instead?
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| JayChicago | -- 05-15-2017 @ 12:10 PM |
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Yes, the resistor in the circuit can easily cause confusion for everyone, including me. A resister only works with current flow. (voltage drop= amps X resistance) With the wire disconnected, the circuit is open, current(amps) is zero, the resister isn't doing anything, but full battery pressure still gets transmitted through the resistor's wire, so you read 6 volts. With the wire connected and current flowing thru the circuit (should be about 5 amps), the resistor goes to work to reduce the voltage by about 3 volts, and you would read the remaining 3 volts at the coil. If you have additional parasite resistance somewhere, its voltage drop too won't be measurable until the circuit is connected and operating. To MGG's question: The engine does not need to be running. As long as the engine hasn't happened to stop just where the points are open (which does happen), with switch on the ignition circuit is working, current is flowing, the resistor will get hot. The coil and points will be carrying full current too, which is why we have to always remember to turn off the switch when working on a stopped engine. BTW, TomO is very knowledgeable, is a recognized expert on this forum. He was suggesting looking for a short in one of the components downstream, which could also produce that low voltage reading at the coil terminal. I would trust his recommendations over mine. I have some theoretical knowledge, but little experience with these cars. And nothing beats experience! This message was edited by JayChicago on 5-15-17 @ 1:40 PM
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| gcraigstep | -- 05-15-2017 @ 3:44 PM |
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TomO I do have the coil mounted on top of the Distributor. Pic Attached. I put my meter on the condenser and there is continuity. My digital meter reads about 5 ohms. When I crank the engine, with ignition off, I'm getting around 18K ohms. Is that indicating a good condenser? I then pulled the coil from the distributor and connect the meter to the large contact suppling voltage to the points. Initial reading is 23.28m ohms. When I crank the motor I then read around 30.12m ohms.
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| gcraigstep | -- 05-15-2017 @ 3:47 PM |
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TomO Here's a good pic of the points on the passenger side of the distributor. You can see the gap. Everything looks fresh.
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| TomO | -- 05-16-2017 @ 6:15 AM |
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Craig, Great photos. I am sorry that my instructions were not more explicit. These tests are made with the engine not moving, one with the points closed and the other with the points open. The tests are trying to isolate the problem to either the distributor or the coil - condenser. "If you have the stock coil, connect you meter between the condenser contact on the coil and ground. Use the Ohm meter function and turn the engine over with the ignition off." should have been : tap the starter to see if the reading change when the points open. "If the meter shows constant continuity, remove the coil (the upper passenger side bolt of the distributor must be removed in order to remove the coil) and repeat the test by putting your probe on the large copper contact where the coil supplies voltage to the points." Insert: make sure that the points are open for this test. Your reading of about 18K when cranking the engine is probably the point dwell. You need to repeat the test of measuring from the copper contact to ground. With the points closed, the reading should be 0 ohms. With the points open the reading should be infinity or "OL" on a digital meter. If you get any other reading from these tests, you can try cleaning the points with a piece of cardboard soaked in alcohol. You should also check the condenser. Connect your meter between the center contact and the grounding tab on the ohms setting. The digital meter should read open, reverse the leads and repeat the test. If you get any other reading, replace the condenser. Let me know how things turn out. Tom
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| gcraigstep | -- 05-16-2017 @ 8:59 AM |
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TomO I think I'm getting more confused as we go. Tap the starter. Is that with ignition on or off? I did the condenser test with the ignition switch off. The initial reading was around 5 ohms. I then tapped the starter and the reading was around 18k ohms. Is this considered "constant continuity"? Does that sound like a good reading for the condenser? Now to the Coil test. Is this done with ignition off and no "bumping" of the starter? And is it possible for both points to be open or closed at the same time to get the reading. Aren't one set of points for one side and the other set of points for the other side and they are sequenced to be opposite.....one open,,,,one closed.
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| gcraigstep | -- 05-16-2017 @ 12:53 PM |
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Testing just the Distributor will be from this copper contact to ground? Are both points "open" at the same time and "closed" at the same time? It seems like they would be offset to each other. When one is open the other is closed and vice versa. Is that correct?
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| ken ct. | -- 05-16-2017 @ 1:16 PM |
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No their off set that gives you your dwell. ken ct.
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| TomO | -- 05-16-2017 @ 3:07 PM |
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Craig, one set of points makes the circuit for current flow in the coil, the other set opens the circuit to allow the spark to go to the plugs. I don't know how I could make the instructions more clear without a hands on show. Tom
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| sarahcecelia | -- 05-16-2017 @ 3:39 PM |
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Uh, these distributors have tw0, that's TWO, sets of points; if one set happens to be OPEN, the other set is CLOSED!The reason for two sets is to get better coil saturation( increased dwell) which equals -You got it- Hotter spark!! Regards, Steve Lee
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| sarahcecelia | -- 05-16-2017 @ 3:44 PM |
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Those old coils from Ford were filled with TAR! Over the years it degrades and they short out! Even if you find the problem and it's not the coil, I still highly recommend getting rid of yours, if it is an orignial from Henry, and getting a new one from skip Haney to prevent a problem in the future!His are filled with -EPOXY!! Regards, Steve Lee
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| gcraigstep | -- 05-16-2017 @ 4:12 PM |
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OK maybe I'm missing something here but Tom you said. " With the points closed, the reading should be 0 ohms. With the points open the reading should be infinity or "OL" on a digital meter." "Points" as in both. If I need to take the reading when BOTH points are open or closed and everyone agrees that the points are off-set.....ones open while the other one closed....how is this done?
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| TomO | -- 05-16-2017 @ 9:24 PM |
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Craig, both sets are closed for 36 degrees. One set closes and then the other set closes. Both sets remain closed for about 36 degrees of the rotation and then the set that closed first opens and then a few degrees later the other set opens. Tom
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