| Jules51 | -- 03-22-2017 @ 7:30 PM |
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Still going through start-up; engine is running good but having problems with vibration when releasing the clutch peddle in 1st gear, less in 2rd and not noticeable going to 3rd. The mounts are new, engine and trans. Hardware set-up of mounts are bolts, flat and split washers and nuts, did not torque (spec??). As mentioned earlier, engine and trans are rebuilt, clutch is new; alignment of clutch and trans was smooth. Am I chasing a "tightness" issue with mounts (read previous post referencing this)or something else? Thanks Jules51
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| Drbrown | -- 03-22-2017 @ 9:30 PM |
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Jules51: Was the flywheel checked for any needed resurfacing ? Any oil interfering at flywheel/clutch ? Yes there's discussion about tightening of of engine/tranny bolts but no specific torque spec. IMHO whenever we change "conditions" anywhere between the engine and drive wheels, there's a potential that existing and new parts need some time and running to get comfortable with each other .... I say give it a little time. This message was edited by Drbrown on 3-22-17 @ 9:35 PM
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| TomO | -- 03-23-2017 @ 7:17 AM |
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Motor mounts are not as critical in solving clutch chatter on the open drive shaft cars. Most of the time the cause of chatter is the clutch, pressure plate or flywheel surface. Incorrect installation procedures can damage the pressure plate and the result is clutch chatter. The correct procedure is to block the release arms to remove pressure on the disc and then tighten the pressure plate bolts evenly to 17 -20 ft.lbs. torque. Release the arms to put pressure on the disc and remove the alignment tool. Inspect the release arms to ensure that they are all at the same level, if not replace the pressure plate. Weak rear springs and lowering blocks will also cause clutch chatter, but I would look at the pressure plate, clutch disc and flywheel first. I recommend Fort Wayne Clutch for any replacement parts as most of the other vendors sell rebuilt or new pressure plates and discs that have not met Ford original design standards. Tom
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| Jules51 | -- 03-23-2017 @ 9:56 AM |
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DrBrown and TomO, thanks for the response. The flywheel was resurfaced, now for the stupid question; I'm hoping I can pull this without pulling this engine, correct? Now I'm working in my garage so no lift. I use stands and can move fairly easily under the car. The vibration is enough to be concerned about, has it lessen, maybe some. I do notice when I'm in 1st gear and at a slow roll with the clutch in and start my release the vibration is very minimal. So it's rough at a dead startup. Sorry for rambling just wanted to give enough info. Thanks Jules51
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| TomO | -- 03-24-2017 @ 7:23 AM |
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I suggest that you purchase a copy of the 49-51 Ford Shop manual. It will help you in removal and replacement procedures. Here is a link to some that are available on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00435FL1G Or you can buy a CD with the parts catalog on it here: http://www.detroitironis.com/1949-1951-ford-factory-shop-manuals-cd.html Tom
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| Drbrown | -- 03-24-2017 @ 7:05 PM |
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TomO's on it .... based on your detailed description seems like flywheel/clutch problem(s).
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| supereal | -- 03-25-2017 @ 12:55 PM |
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Clutch vibration is most often due to a worn pilot bearing in the flywheel or the ballbearing on the input shaft of the transmission. In either case, it allows the clutch disk to be clamped off center when the pressure plate is engaged. It can also be caused by a mismatch between the clutch housing and the engine block. We used to encounter this problem when swapping engines years ago, and had to shim either the bell housing or transmission case. If the locating dowels between the engine and bell housing are damaged or missing, the bolts alone will not center the assembly.
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| Jules51 | -- 03-26-2017 @ 7:50 PM |
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TomO, Drbrown & Superal, thanks for your responses. Concerning the mounts, I did notice that my trans mount was too tight, meaning the u-clamp (holding the rubber grommet) was mating with the cross-member. Loosen enough to have a gape. I'm surprise that there's not a rubber washer between the clamp and cross-member. However, some improvement but not the smoking gun. Question, can clutch pedal adjustment play a role in this? Tomorrow I'm going to recheck my front mounts (thinking about adding rubber washers), and clutch peddle adjustment. (NOTE: Locating dowels are in place.) I'm sure that I had a good alignment, triple checked this when mating the trans to the clutch. Since this was my first I will not rule this out. SHIMS! Now that's something I have not done. Is that procedure in the 49-51 Shop manual? TomO, I have the manual and illustration book but like the idea about the CD you suggested. As mentioned earlier, flywheel resurfaced, clutch system new and trans rebuilt by VanPelts, unfortunately all installed by me. Still digging.............................. Thanks guys.............. Thanks Jules51
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| len47merc | -- 03-27-2017 @ 5:25 AM |
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Jules51 - I too struggled with clutch chatter (almost undriveable) right off the bat with the first new clutch & PP (plus resurfaced flywheel) I installed on the '47 when bringing it back from its long slumber. Agreeing with TomO with a personal experience, went through all the trials and tribulations you've mentioned thus far as well as those mentioned by TomO, Drbrown and supereal and never could get the first clutch close to 'right'. Tried everything. Finally bit the bullet, pulled the engine a 2nd time and, with input and process direction from some of these same three, installed a newly resurfaced clutch from Fort Wayne which included cushioning springs between the front and back clutch surfaces (the prior clutch plate did not have these, and as well the friction surfaces appeared to be completely different material). With everything set as it was left with the old clutch chattering uncontrollably the Fort Wayne clutch was immediately buttery smooth and, with the exception of the later-experienced front motor mount issue discussed under a separate thread which you referenced, the clutch has remained that smooth for 7K-8K miles. Restating and summarizing my recent experience - if front mount bottom bushings are not adequately tightened, clutch chatter can and may result. I can loosen my front mounts to the point the bottom bushings can be rotated by hand and what I will call minor but noticeable and aggravating, though manageable, clutch chatter/vibration will result. Tighten them adequately and the chatter is gone; HOWEVER, this was found to have little-to-no impact in resolving chatter with the first 'bad' clutch and only shows minimal impact with the quality Fort Wayne clutch. Fwiw. Btw - pulling the engine the SECOND time, replacing the clutch disc per TomO's process, and reinstalling to the point of driving the car, was accomplished in just over 5 hours with a helper - a Saturday afternoon. If I'd planned better it perhaps could have been reduced to ~4 but a few more iterations of experience were likely needed to do it that quickly. At some point you will have invested more time than this trying all options before accepting that, as TomO stated particularly on the open drive shaft cars, your problem is most likely linked to the installed clutch disc &/or incorrect installation than anything else. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 3-27-17 @ 5:41 AM
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| Jules51 | -- 03-27-2017 @ 8:46 AM |
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len47mers, thanks for your input. Along with yours and the others, I'm biting the bullet and pulling the engine to replace the clutch. I spoke with Terry at Fort Wayne and he agrees about the chatter, described the issue I'm experiencing exactly. So, the route I'm taking is installing a new clutch system from Fort Wayne, sounds familiar? Another lesson learned......................... Thanks Jules51
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| Stroker | -- 03-27-2017 @ 4:21 PM |
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I've decided to "re-edit" this post to correct what Sarajcecelia CORRECTLY states are "misnomers" such as "pressure plate, "throw-out bearings". He's right of course. We use a lot of "silly terms" describing our Ford's components such as "wishbones", "spiders", "backing-plates", "bell housings","banjo center sections" etc. Duly corrected below Sir Sarahcecelia. So MANY clutch-assembly "re-builders" today don't have the tools needed to properly adjust the clutch cover release levers. The"vintage" clutch cover fixtures are few and far between unless you are a competent specialist like Ft Wayne. Many modern re-builders simply rely upon static measurement of release lever height. This does NOT ensure a properly adjusted clutch cover..."close maybe, but NO CIGAR". Another factor in the "brew" is the use of substitute materials that have replaced asbestos as a "friction-binding" material in the clutch driven disc. In "non-race" applications, asbestos is STILL the best, but cannot be legally sourced today. Clutches, flywheel run-out, friction surface spalling, transmission input shaft pilot bearings, clutch release bearings, motor-to chassis insulators, engine movement limiting struts, clutch covers, clutch operating linkage, and the driver's "operating technique". All of these elements can conspire against a smooth clutch engagement in a "stacking process" with each adding a contributing element to the overall issue. The only one that isn't hardware-related is "operator technique". Early Fords, (28-48) added another constraint with their torque-tube drive which was absolutely unforgiving of any anomalies due to drive line rigidity. 49-up at least had the benefit of some "give" in the system which mitigates the problem a "little". Now, having made this post a little more accurate I'm going to make myself a refreshing cocktail with a blend of distilled neutral grain spirits and a splash of dihydrogen monoxide. This message was edited by Stroker on 3-27-17 @ 7:20 PM
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| sarahcecelia | -- 03-27-2017 @ 6:13 PM |
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Regarding engine vibration: I would say it is probably ,as another guy said on this forum, the pressure plate was distorted when the bolts that hold it to the flywheel were tightened it has to be done with the fingers blocked ,with the plate in the released postion, like the foregoing person stated so as not to distort it ( in the 60's when you purchased one three little clips in the fingers did this, and after it was installed you removed them with a screw driver.,) or it could be the "clutch release bearing" commonly mistakenly called the "throw out bearing." It is a release bearing because it releases the pressure plate, it does not "throw the clutch out" or it would gone!The pressure plate is mistakenly called that, but the correct terminology is "clutch cover." Signed, an 80 year "old old school mechanic" of the 60's that installed many, many cluches that were burned out from people trying to get unstuck in the snow. Regards, Steve Lee
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| Drbrown | -- 04-01-2017 @ 7:08 PM |
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sarahcecelia ..... and they still get stuck in the snow, but now burn-out their automatic's and damage their front wheel drives. Options: (1) stay home, pop a beer open and turn on the TV, (2) leave keys in car and depart for nearest bar, (3) take a course titled "Anticipating and Avoiding Problematic Driving Conditions". What I miss ? Can't use the old "mud hooks" on my wheels anymore.
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| flathead4rd | -- 04-02-2017 @ 6:01 AM |
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Just as a final add on suggestion. When you get your new clutch assembly take it and the flywheel and have it balanced as an assembly. Cost me about $ 60.00 bucks but solved all my vibration problems.
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| Jules51 | -- 04-07-2017 @ 4:54 AM |
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flathead4rd, thanks. Please expand on this for it's the first I've heard. Where would I get this "balanced"? Thanks Jules51
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