Thank You.!
Steve
I have witnessed far too many "original cars" that the owner(s) have insisted "came that way". Misinformed? Wishful thinking? Or, just plain "incorrect"?
Thank You
Steve.
This message was edited by FLTHDCPE on 2-13-17 @ 12:31 PM
I would love to see the "proof". Numbers matching is not proof. It is simple to make frames and transmissions match.
If this car has truly been in the same family since new, the documentation should be readily available and complete.
Until I see real proof, I will stay in the "never happened" column on this one.
The owners claim that Ford built 513 of these "late in 39 and early 40" can't stand on that merit alone. By August, 1939, Ford was in regular production of the '40 Ford as we are well acquainted with. This was long after the basic design features were approved and placed in to mass production. Although there were minor production design changes throughout most of that production run, NONE were as sweeping as a floor shift vs. a column shift. No how - no way.
One must, when researching these vehicles, keep clearly in mind that many, many changes often occurred during the past 77 years. Some were done so convincingly that they would (otherwise) appear to be "factory".
Respectfully, Mike "Kube" Kubarth
PS: Perhaps you would be so kind to privately forward me the serial number of this car. I firmly believe this will be an easy one to "put to rest".
This message was edited by kubes40 on 2-13-17 @ 2:30 PM
Two things - Google the name 'Mike Kubarth' along with 1940 Fords and see what you may come up with. Secondly - go back to the home page of our Forum and select the 'New 1940 Ford Book' section and pursue who the lead author of the book is.
You will do well to take advantage of kubes40 generous offer, particularly if you intend on letting go of the amount of greenbacks an unmolested '40 in Concourse condition (or is able to be placed into Concourse condition economically) should bring. If true originality is not a concern and you are simply paying for a driver then knowing what you truly may have would still be of keen interest to even the most novice of owners.
Before you make your investment - it sounds as if the seller may truly believe in their data and the original configuration of the car. Ask them to show you their source data and then share that with kubes40. If they are that confident then sharing the info with you should be of no concern to them. And take advantage of kubes40 offer regardless of whether you obtain the source data or not. In the end you may still purchase the car, but at least you will do so from a position of confidence and knowledge. Let the (hard) data speak for itself.
Steve
I have had first hand experience with a '37 Ford 4dr that my brother owns. He bought the car in the mid '70's from a man that had owned it for many years. For all practice purposes the car is dead stock with a couple exceptions.
Exception number one: the engine is a 24 stud 59AB, however, the heads don't have the 59 AB on them and there is not 59 on the block.
The second non stock item is the brakes: They are '39-41 hydraulics with '37-41 brakes.
I know the man that owned the car for many years, I ran into him at a car show a few years ago, he wanted to known if my brother still had the '37, I replied in the affirmative.
I asked about the engine, was told that the engine in the car was getting very tired, he had a fresh 59 AB engine so he ground the ID casting marks off and put the engine in the car. Not a big deal, it was his wife's car, she drove to work every day so it had to be dependable.
I asked about the hydraulic brakes, was told that they were on the car when he bought it.
My brother tells people that the '37 is dead stock.. The hydraulic brakes were a special order item for the car in '37. The engine issue never comes up because my brother never mentions it..
The car consistently wins trophy's at cars shows because it is always entered in the original class..
When my brother moved to a new state several years ago, when the car was inspected the serial numbers on the frame and title did not match. Of course this caused a ruckus with the DMV. Brother snowed the state inspector with the twenty-five years of CA registration cards he had. The numbers that were stamped into the frame/trans were put onto the new title.
Bill
36 5 win delx cpe
After talking to the owner and listening to his story about his rare '40 Ford I decided to post on here and see what other Ford owners and "Experts" had to say. Well I got their answers and more.! I don't intend to spoil his fun or change his story,it's his to enjoy and drive and that's what he's doing.!
It's my curiosity that started all of this. I own a 1940 Ford Coupe and have been involved in this hobby/sport for 58 yr's. I' am still learning and as I like to say "your never to old to learn,and you'll never know it all" I'll leave that to other people.!
I'm not trying to buy, nor is this car for sale.! He intends to keep it and enjoy driving ,which is the same thing that I intend to do. We are not really to concerned about how "Correct" they are. We are not going to compete for the "Dearborn or Rouge" Award, just enjoy our Ole Fords, which is why we are still doing this.!
Thank You.
Steve
This message was edited by FLTHDCPE on 2-14-17 @ 12:17 PM
Steve
I don't believe you offended anyone. Certainly not me. I truly do enjoy researching these '39 & '40 Fords and like you, realize there were some oddities.
I offered my help in a sincere fashion and please understand, I will always help if and when I am able.
In regard to my research, it (the book) will be certain to upset a few folks. Much of what we were told / learned through previous publications, etc. was not necessarily correct. Some of those inaccuracies I knew years ago while others came as a shock to me.
Anyway, please keep posting questions and comments. You have already shown you can keep things interesting
Kind regards to you...
Mike
. John
This message was edited by JM on 2-14-17 @ 7:41 PM
Thank You.!
Steve
It is of my humble opinion that we as restorers need a 'standard" by which to restore our cars. If we do not have that standard, the age old argument that Ford "could have" or "probably did" can and do get way too much leverage on the concourse.
My book is based solely on what can be proven and will be presented as such.
Now, getting back to changes on the assembly line... yes, no doubt they happened. However, not a floor shift placed in to a column shift car. The simple logistics of such a "swap" would be nothing less than a (costly) nightmare.
Over the years, it has had FIVE different engines, starting with the original 221 81A, a 239 59A, a 255 8CM, a "seriously modified"304 59A in the early 60's, and now has a .030" over-bored 59A that is "dressed" to look like an 81A. with the 38 aluminum intake, CG carb and "correct" fuel pump.
It also received hydraulic brakes early in 1939, as Dad "wanted" them when he was pulling our stock trailer in the mountains. So..
Since I have no kids that are interested in this, and I'm pretty "long of tooth" myself; someone besides my family will own this old beast before too long.
I still have the original Invoice from the Pomona, California Ford Dealer. I have Dad's cancelled check when he bought it. Except for having hydraulic brakes and the wrong engine block; the car "looks, acts, and sounds" original.
Having "all that" documentation could easily fool a buyer into thinking it is an unmolested original car.
What that buyer would not know is that this car was "totaled" in 1957 and resurrected by me over the course of about a year and a half using parts from 2 "donor" 38's including a frame, and all the sheet metal ahead of the firewall.
So....how "original" is this car? Well, it has the "original wood, floorpan, seats dash, radio, steering wheel, transmission and cowling". NOTHING else is "original". It is "mostly" as original, and the buyer might claim that it is original, when he re-sells it.
The seller might claim that it's had hydraulic brakes since new, that it "came-with" a 239 cubic-inch engine, and he "has the Original Invoice to back up its "heritage".
I'm thinking about perhaps having the poor cars history engraved on a thick stainless-steel plate and tig-welding it to a prominently-visible frame location to prevent anyone from misrepresenting it's "history"
Any thoughts fellow V8'ers ?This message was edited by Stroker on 2-15-17 @ 9:16 AM
As a kid in high school I can't tell you how many '40s got '39 transmissions with Lincoln gears because it was the cool thing to do. Many were done in high school auto shop. It was also cool to get rid of the column shift tube.
I am perhaps one of a handful on this site that knows where the analogy "long in the tooth" comes from.
I'd never thought to use it the way you have. It certainly applies! I mean, not to you necessarily
but in the way you used it. I will have to add that to my "one liners". Around here, a lot of folks will know what it means in an instant.
Kindest regards to ya,
Mike
Like you, I believe in the concept of "vehicle integrity" first and foremost. AND..I'm really kind of "secretly hoping" that Ford actually did build a handful of 40's with floor-shift transmissions though, as that would be a fascinating discovery.
My old wagon "is what it is", nothing more or less. I love her, and hope to enjoy her for a while longer.
Here's a photo I took of her about a month ago after she received a fresh varnish job.
Alan Simpson has contributed many suggestions on getting her right, and if it wasn't for our Club, and this great forum I wouldn't have a CLUE as to how to make her correct.
I often wondered why the original Desert Sand color wasn't shown in any of the original brochures, but the Club allowed me to determine what "Easter Colors" were, and how Ford used up some left-over paint in 1938 on "open-chassis" cars assembled in Long Beach that year.
I could have never kept her close to being "right" without the EV8 Club. Thank You ALL!