| len47merc | -- 09-08-2016 @ 12:20 PM |
|
Ok - on the ride back from Gettysburg in 95+ degree heat with a 4# cap, 2-year/5,000 miles old 67/33 distilled/EG mix, clean radiator/block & new water pumps (see pic), running 60 mph/2,500 rpm the '47 59AB ran ~195 degrees. Today I decided to drain, flush and re-fill the cooling system. To flush it I filled it with 5 gallons of distilled water, got out the original no-pressure cap (see second & third pics) and drove the car non-stop 50 miles at 60 mph/2,500 rpm in 95 degree temps today. So here's the quiz - why is the car, in the same ambient conditions and operating parameters, now running 174 degrees (20+ degrees cooler) with pure distilled and a zero pressure cap versus 195 with a 67/33 mix and a 4# cap? Is pure distilled that much better than EG at heat-transfer? Is the no-pressure original cap at play? I'm baffled. After cool-down I drained the system and refilled with a 75+/25- distilled/EG mix. Have yet to give that a test yet. Still puzzled by the above results. EDIT - all temps were confirmed with a thermocouple & Fluke meter. The dash gauge also reflected the previously established and known ~positions for the 174 & 195 degree figures. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-8-16 @ 12:26 PM
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-08-2016 @ 12:21 PM |
|
Here's the top of the cap that came with the car and is thought to be the original. Steve
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-08-2016 @ 12:22 PM |
|
And a pic of the bottom of the cap. Steve
|
|
| ford38v8 | -- 09-08-2016 @ 3:34 PM |
|
Steve, We all know that nothing cools better than plain old water, but that's not your answer. What happened to you was you had an air lock in the system. Happens a lot in the hot water heaters. Air bubble diverts flow. Gotta purge. Lift your leg and burp. Say Ahh. Fill while engine running to avoid the bubble. Take this info to the bank. Alan
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-08-2016 @ 4:32 PM |
|
Thanks Alan - never thought of that obviously, but have to dig a little deeper to understand this. Air bubble in the heater? What's the diff between that and simply shutting off the heater control valve on the passenger side head for the summer? And the IR thermometer showed equitable temps on both sides. Not too concerned about having run the engine that long at that temp - just cannot get my head around this on these flatheads - seems I'd have seen much higher temps/boiled over, neither of which happened. Please put a little more meat on the bone for my thick head here - Steve
|
|
| pauls39coupe | -- 09-08-2016 @ 7:10 PM |
|
Oh yeah, pure water will cool a lot better. I'm not sure 20 degrees better but you will find out on your next test. Products like Water Wetter seem to work well at reducing the temperature, by reducing the surface tension of the water. The four pound thermostats will raise the boiling point about 4 degrees per pound or 16 degrees total. This will keep the water from turning to steam but won't actually lower the water temperature. The increased pressure may help keep steam pockets from developing, particularly in the far corners of the heads, and this could help with cooling. The mixture of anti-freeze will also raise the boiling point. Let us know how your next test comes out.
|
|
| ford38v8 | -- 09-08-2016 @ 7:35 PM |
|
Steve, you're really making me work here. And Paul makes some powerful points also. An air lock can happen elsewhere besides within the heater circuit, but then, your dual gauges tend to make that a thin argument. There should be an easy answer to a 20ºF difference. If all conditions are known, a couple degrees here, maybe a few degrees there, but are all the different conditions and consequences really known? Exactly what are the instructions with your anti-freeze? And why is antifreeze even needed in 95º weather? If the combination of an incorrect mix ratio and lack of a pressure cap, plus maybe an air bubble? And, the route driven? A difference in altitude or grade? Perfect storm? You're baffled, and I'm stumped. Alan
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-08-2016 @ 7:50 PM |
|
The EG is only for the lubrication and anti-corrosion contribution. I'll also run this for the next two years or so before the next flush. I've chalked this up to your suggestion of trapped air somewhere in the system Alan and plan on taking your advice in the morning and givin' her a good old leg-lifting, multiple pat-on-the-back burpin' with the fresh fluid and call it a day. My local shop wants me to run 50-50 but I just don't see the need. And they don't recommend straight distilled with only a lubricant/anti-corrosion additive. 20% EG should get me to below 20 degrees or so in freeze protection which, though possible and happens a couple of times each winter, is rare here in central NC. Boiling point raised to 216 plus conservatively 2.5 degrees per lb for a 4 lb cap gets it to 226 degrees on the high side. Plus the car is garaged and never sees anything below freezing anyway and also never came close to the higher temp on the recent drive. Burp it in the morn and take it out for a cruise mid-day in the heat of the day. Will report back. Thanks for the effort Alan - sorry to put your nose to the grindstone today...but, ya know, it keeps you fresh! Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-8-16 @ 7:51 PM
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 4:17 AM |
|
And Alan, note as always, I did, take it to the bank. Should've thought about that myself - know I impatiently/mistakenly/absent-mindedly/senior moment forgetfulness didn't burp it with the last change and given I was running a 4# cap and have only driven it around town since, any air was likely never purged. Yesterday when I installed 5 gallons of distilled and the original no-pressure cap for the drive/flush any air was likely purged and the cooler temps were realized. Taking it to the bank - I strongly suspect I had air trapped somewhere on both sides of the block before this change. As always thanks much for sharing your experience and advice. Out at 2 or so today for a cruise at speed with the burped 75/25 mix. We'll see how that compares with the pure distilled. And btw - I do not have dual gauges, only the stock temp gauge that I previously validated the various cold-to-hot readings with a TC/Fluke. I test the coolant temp in the top of the radiator with the TC/Fluke, and side-to-side head temp comparisons with the IR thermometer. It'd be blasphemy to have anything other in the car... Cheers - Steve
|
|
| TomO | -- 09-09-2016 @ 7:06 AM |
|
I don't have an answer for the 20 degree change, but I would question if the conditions are exactly the same, (same temp, same wind, same sun,etc). The cap that you call the original looks like a pressure cap to me, are you sure that it doesn't provide pressure? Are you sure that your aftermarket radiator cap is providing pressure? Tom
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 7:52 AM |
|
Conditions are more than adequately the same Tom and I do appreciate your thoughts here. The cap is as it was found on the car upon receipt - the pics were posted to obtain input from you and others to determine what animal I have. I have seen one other NOS cap exactly like this (no rubber gasket(s)) at a swap meet in Charlotte and should've picked it up but I was already using the 4# cap and couldn't justify the $30 price. Perhaps it was/is a pressure cap but... I can remove this cap after running the car for hours at speed and temp with no fear of spray/pressure. This is how I am able to test the coolant temps so quickly after a drive. This car has never run hot or even spit coolant out the tube with or without a pressure cap, even in stop-n-go July 4th parades or extended idling in hot weather. I'm very fortunate for this. I cannot remove the 4# cap when the car is hot as I'll receive the obligatory 1st & 2nd-degree burn hand, arm and facial spray, so I'm fairly confident it is holding pressure but I have not formally tested it. For my testing today am continuing to use the 'original no-pressure' cap. I am becoming more and more convinced that Alan is on the mark. This morning starting at 5:30 I ran the car through two heat-ups/cool-downs at idle without the cap on with the freshly-installed 75/25 distilled/EG mix. Currently it is 86 degrees and the car has now been idling for 55 minutes in the driveway (3rd cycle) without the cap on and the coolant in the top of the tank has been at and not exceeded 156 degrees for now ~45 minutes. I have 155 degree stats installed. Head surface temps are consistent on each side. The heater core is hot. I'm taking it out for an ~100 mile test drive on a few local highways where I can maintain 60 mph for the entire trip and then to home, all in the hottest part of the day - likely 2-3 pm - with the 'no-pressure' cap. When I return home the plan is to let the car idle for at least 30 minutes in the driveway. The forecast for today is 94 degrees. I'll report the results later. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-9-16 @ 8:16 AM
|
|
| ford38v8 | -- 09-09-2016 @ 10:02 AM |
|
Steve, There is another condition that has not been mentioned, which could very easily account for a 20º difference in readings. Were the different readings taken in your driveway after the drives, idling for 30 minutes as you intend to do today, with the hood up or down? These factors, any one or all, are more important than most any other to be identical between comparing test results. I tell you what, You pack your car same as your trip to the Eastern National Meet with all the spare parts, tools, luggage, and family, take along both radiator caps, jugs of different ratio coolants, point that Merc in a Westerly direction, and document 10 tests with each condition, alternating with each other. Keep this record of results, complete with pictures, and we'll sit together with beers in hand and burp (belch) this thing out at the Western National Meet in Bakersfield next month. I know a few others who plan on doing much the same test, so it'll be fun to compare notes. Whatta ya say? Alan
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 11:23 AM |
|
Alan - sounds real, real, REAL good. Right now though it's 93 degrees and still climbin' so I'm headin' out for my test cruise right now. Quickly though, the super precise, precision calibrated original gauge on the '47's dash ran at 7/8 on the drive home from Gettysburg from Charlottesville to here (only part in 95+ degree temps), and now it is running below 3/4 in the same ambient conditions. I quite 'anal-ly' have pulled off the road before and stuck the TC in the radiator with the gauge in these and other positions so I know what the actual temp is at 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 and 7/8. Plus yesterday (and also in about 60 minutes from now), I pulled off the road and checked the temp with the TC and know it to be on the mark still. Yes sir said the operator - I'm confident in the consistency of my data acquisition. I'm out for the test drive - car never exceeded 156 degrees after an hour+ idle this morning at temps up to 86 degrees. Update this afternoon's results with my home brew in hand in a few hours. May even have to post a pic of the IPA in all it's glory... Steve
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 4:03 PM |
|
Ok - am sure you've all been on the edge of your seats here, so here goes - with the winner to be announced at the end. Drove the car 93 miles today in 93-95 degree temps, 72 of which were at a non-stop 60 mph actual, 2,500 rpm. 75/26 distilled/EG. The attached pic was snapped (please - no driving and texting comments please!) after ~30 minutes at a non-stop 60 mph actual (GPS). Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-9-16 @ 4:17 PM
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 4:05 PM |
|
Just after the previous pic was snapped I pulled off the road at the next exit and immediately inserted the TC into the top of the radiator - the gauge was still at the same reading as in the last pic. Steve
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 4:09 PM |
|
The preceding was the highest reading seen on the mini tour today. After returning home the '47 was allowed to idle in the driveway for 30 minutes, after which the TC showed 161 degrees in the top. Head temps between cylinders 2/3 & 6/7 were taken with the IR and were in the low-to-mid-170 range. Steve
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 4:15 PM |
|
So, as the Chief Bottle Washer, Owner of This Discussion Thread and basically Grand Poobah for the time being it is hereby deemed the prize winner today is Alan The Great! The Prize is the attached Pliny the Elder double IPA clone - brewed in the basement 3 months ago and chilled today for Alan's enjoyment. Please disregard the chill haze - it clears up as you drink it. Cheers! Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-9-16 @ 4:31 PM
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 4:24 PM |
|
ps - the lone difference of potential consideration in the test today versus the ride home from Gettysburg is my wife was not in the car with me today. Given many of you may meet her at future Meets I'll leave it to your judgements how you may wish to address that variance! Steve
|
|
| ford38v8 | -- 09-09-2016 @ 4:33 PM |
|
Steve, You'll have to bring along some of that stuff when you come. That brew has got some head on it! (My wife tells me that it matches my fat head). Alan
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 5:11 PM |
|
Wow! Looks like Alan is really enjoyin' that Grand Prize! Steve
|
|
| ford38v8 | -- 09-09-2016 @ 5:43 PM |
|
(Belch) Alan
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-09-2016 @ 5:51 PM |
|
Thanks to Alan, pauls39coupe & TomO for weighing in. Learned a LOT about cooling and the 59AB in this process and earlier trip to Gettysburg. Very blessed to be part of this Club and to somehow be the owner of this '47! Still considering the drive to Bakersfield in Oct w/the wife and '47 (~2,550 miles+ one way). All the best - Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-9-16 @ 6:15 PM
|
|
| JayChicago | -- 09-11-2016 @ 9:35 PM |
|
This was an entertaining thread. Fun to read. I am a new owner of a EFV8. I have no idea how old the coolant is, so I will be changing it. How do I properly burp my baby? Is letting the engine idle as I re-fill the coolant sufficient? Mine is a stock 40 Ford with no heater.
|
|
| TomO | -- 09-12-2016 @ 8:42 AM |
|
There usually is no problem with air bubbles in the Ford cooling system. Drain and flush the system and then refill with a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze (mix before filling) to about 1/2" below the fill opening. Start the car and run the engine until the thermostats open. The coolant may rise as this happens and then drop to below the core. Fill to the bottom of the fill opening, put on the cap and drive the car. Recheck the level after it cools down. I like to use Sierra or Prestone Low Tox (propylene glycol) as it is less likely to foam and if you have a head gasket leak, it will not damage the engine like ethylene glycol will. Do NOT use the orange anti-freeze as it will eat the solder in your radiator. I am not convinced that an air bubble could stay in the cooling system for over 1,000 miles and raise the temperature of the coolant by 20 degrees. But I cannot give an answer as why the car ran 20 degrees cooler after replacing the antifreeze. Tom
|
|
| JayChicago | -- 09-12-2016 @ 4:47 PM |
|
Thanks, Tom. Good info for me to know. Jay
|
|
| len47merc | -- 09-13-2016 @ 4:01 AM |
|
Tom - like you, I have trouble with the amount of time and miles that have passed but I can give no other explanation. The variables were: 1) New concentration of coolant 75+/25- dist/EG versus previous 60/40 2) Non-pressure cap (assumed - came with car) versus previous 4# 3) Wife not in car for tests Perhaps the combo of the 3 above was adequate to see these results but I doubt it. To what degree (sorry) they collectively had an impact I don't know - likely some for sure but 20 degrees is doubtful. For the time being just going to drive and enjoy the car more at the 'new' operating temps. Weather/temps are moving into fall now - no '9' in the forecast at all - so my test of pure distilled with only corrosion/rust inhibitor and lubricant will have to wait until next summer, as well as Alan's request for '...10 tests for each condition...'. Darn it, was looking forward to that last one... Steve
|
|
| EFV-8 Club Forum : | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum |
| Topic: | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=10064 |