| Tracker | -- 08-19-2011 @ 10:47 AM |
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Can anyone tell me if there is a way to determine if a 1951 Mercury has its original engine ? Are there numbers on the block that correspond to the vin or body plate ? Thanks. Tracker
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| Stroker | -- 08-19-2011 @ 12:14 PM |
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Tracker: The short answer is no. Early Fords (and most cars of that vintage) do not have a VIN number. Your body plate may tell you where your car was built, color and trim codes, and a driveline number may tell you the serial number of the engine/transmission assembly, but there is no correlation between the two. The modern VIN number came about as an attempt to cut down on auto theft-related "chop shops", and therefore appears on many components (some secret), to assist in criminal investigations.
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| supereal | -- 08-19-2011 @ 3:31 PM |
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I agree with Dan. In short, as long as the engine has the four inch crank, why care? "matching numbers" is a hoax to charge more bucks.
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| Tracker | -- 08-19-2011 @ 4:22 PM |
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Thanks for the replies. The question came up when I was working on replacing the water pumps. These are wide belt and I was under the impression the 51 was equipped with narrow belts. What ever it is, I'm happy with it... it delivers surprizing stock performance in such a heavy car but even with OD, it is a beast on gas consumption Thanks again. Tracker Tracker
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-19-2011 @ 5:32 PM |
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Tracker, you are in possession of the most prized of all Ford products as far as long distance travel is concerned. The '51 Merc is literally a driving machine. Suspension, power ratio to weight, aerodynamics, comfort, it just all comes together in the '51 Merc. Enjoy your ride and consider your destination as secondary to the fun of the trip. Alan
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| TomO | -- 08-20-2011 @ 7:32 AM |
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Tracker, the 51 Merc should give decent mileage on the road (18-20 mpg) and less around town (12-15 mpg). If you are not getting near these numbers: Check the carburetor for leaks, especially around the fitting for the gas line. Check front end alignment, toe in out of specs can eat gas. Check brake adjustment. Check tie pressure. Check your spark plugs for correct gap. Check for vacuum leaks. Check compression Check timing with the vacuum advance vacuum line disconnected and plugged. Check your left shoe and foot for lead. These are the most common causes of poor mileage. A worn out engine or a slipping clutch can also affect mileage. Tom
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| Stroker | -- 08-20-2011 @ 4:58 PM |
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TomO: Great advice! I'm a little perplexed however regarding the admonition regarding the left foot/shoe lead inspection requirement. Wouldn't this be more of a problem regarding frequent throw-out bearing replacements, and/or clutch plate wear? I was taught to "never ride the clutch". I can see that substantial lead addition would have made that habit much harder to kick. Dan This message was edited by Stroker on 8-20-11 @ 4:59 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-20-2011 @ 5:49 PM |
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Picky, picky! Alan
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| Tracker | -- 08-20-2011 @ 7:02 PM |
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Thanks for the check list. I have gone over all these things with others who know a lot more about engines than I do but every thing comes up normal each time. If this car gets more than 11 mpg on the hi way with a three speed ovcerdive I would be astounded. I have had several tell me its because of the rear end being geared so low ...4.0 ? as I recall. However, its factory stock and has never even been opened. I love the car but for the obvious reason, I don't drive it much on trips. It has recently developed a slight clutch chatter and I plan to change out the clutch assy if I can ever find one. Tracker
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| TomO | -- 08-21-2011 @ 9:41 AM |
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Dan, I admit that I added some lead to the left shoe to balance the lead in the right shoe. Because of this, I sometimes get my left and right shoes mixed up. I tried to remedy that problem by driving barefoot, but found out that this is not legal, so I bought a new pair of driving shoes. Now I just have to remember to put them on. A few years ago, there was a 51 Mercury with OD driving with me on one of the Motorfest tours. On the way back to Auburn, we stopped to fill up, he took 2 gallons of gas less than I did. I typically get around 15-18 mpg when I drive 55 or slower. Above that speed, my gas gauge looks like the tank has a hole in it. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 8-21-11 @ 9:58 AM
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| Dale Fairfax | -- 08-21-2011 @ 5:24 PM |
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Tracker: The low geared rearend gear (probably 4.27:1)is compensated for by the O.D. final drive ratio of .70:1. So in top gear with the O.D. engaged, you have an effective ratio of .70 X 4.27 or 2.99:1. There is no reason why you should be experiencing 11 m.p.g with that. That O.D. is the reason Mercs and Lincolns used to win the Mobilgas Economy Run. I suggest there is something awry with your state of tune.
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| Tracker | -- 08-21-2011 @ 6:48 PM |
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Thanks .....probably you are right and I did find the same info you offered on the 4:27 rear end...it was also supplied in station wagons destined for western states. I admit to being perplexed when I hear all the reports of high gas mileage reported by other 51 Merc owners. This car has been through several old car shops and found everything in spec. I am wondering now if it is really going into overdrive all the time. It goes into passing mode when I step down on it so I assume its working but I'm not enough of a mechanic to do a check up. Thanks to all. Tracker
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| Dale Fairfax | -- 08-21-2011 @ 6:57 PM |
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That "4.0" gear should not be affecting mileage if your overdrive is indeed working. The actual ratio in a Merc is probably a 4.27 but that is modified by the O.D. which has a .70 : 1 ratio in top gear. Your effective final drive ratio in 3rd gear with the o.D. engaged is about 2.99:1 That a pretty "High" gear-one that should deliver much better than 11 mpg. Something else is awry.
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| Tracker | -- 08-28-2011 @ 7:41 AM |
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After all the discussion on poor gas mileage in my 51 stock engine ( 3 speed w/od ), thought I should report back what we have found thus far : 1. The OD is definately not working all the time. Sometimes it shifts , sometimes not. We are going through the electrical as it was working previously. 2. The Carb has a heavy smell about it like raw gasoline. The car does not show signs of black smoke but you can definately smell raw gas while its running. No visible exterior leakage that we can see. Any thoughts on this ? I am thinking about sending the carb off for a rebuild but I'm not sure if thats the answer and its " read as expensive " The repair quotes are probably more expensive than buying a new carb. Thanks to all for the inputs. I investigate every recommendation. Regards Tracker
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| TomO | -- 08-28-2011 @ 11:03 AM |
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The 51 Merc carbs tend to leak around the fitting where the fuel line comes into the carburetor. It is difficult to see this leak as it is from the fitting on the carb, not the fuel line fitting. The gas creeps along the bottom of the carb and evaporates before it drips. Try starting the car to bukd up fuel pump pressure and then shut it off before it gets warm. Feel around the bottom of the carb and you should get a film of gas on your finger. A dental mirror helps to see under there. You can try a new gasket for the fitting, but you may have to have the surface ground smooth or a bushing put in if the threads are worn enough. Tom
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| janman33 | -- 08-28-2011 @ 7:25 PM |
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I have always thought the '49 was the only wide belt and from '50-'53 the narrow belt? Engine change or? how does the belt fit in the crank pulley?
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| Tracker | -- 08-29-2011 @ 1:52 PM |
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The family of the original owner says this car has never had an engine change or rebuild, so I don't have an answer why it has wide belts. I was also under the impression that the 51 had narrow belts which is what prompted my original question on motor nos -engine identification. At the moment , thats the least of my problems with this car but whatever the engine is, it performs well and moves the car as well as I would expect from 110 hp. Again, thanks to everyone for the advice ....I will report back when I get the OD and Crab issue resolved.
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| Tracker | -- 08-29-2011 @ 1:54 PM |
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Oops ! Meant to say the Carb issue ...thankfully the car does not have crabs ( need to use the preview button in future )
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| Stroker | -- 08-29-2011 @ 3:10 PM |
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Actually, I used to run a "crab" (42 Ford) distributor on my 59A motor. Crab's ain't all bad.
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| TomO | -- 09-04-2011 @ 4:28 PM |
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Tracker, after looking through the 49-51 Lincoln Mercury Overhaul manual, I am pretty sure that Mercury did not change to the thin belts until 1952. The early 49 cars had one belt that powered both water pumps and the generator. There was a change to the 2 belt system in 1949 and that was used until 1952 when the water pumps were redesigned and the thin belts were introduced. Ford went to the thin belts earlier. Tom
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| Tracker | -- 09-05-2011 @ 6:48 AM |
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Tom Thanks for your comments....I was beginning to wonder if I had been sold a bill of goods but I don't think so now. This car is original down to the 6 volt system and I intend to keep it stock and original. We are looking at the OD issue and also a carb rebuild to address the poor gas mileage. It definately does not go into overdrive consistently and the carb is now hesitating on quick acceleration as if the acc pump is not working correctly. I checked every thing on your earlier recommendation and we have narrowed it down to this. Many thanks to all who have offered help on this problem...this is the best website in the industry for help on the early Mercs...many knowledgeable people willing to help and believe me I am still in a steep learning curve. Regards Tracker
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| supereal | -- 09-05-2011 @ 8:26 AM |
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The "coincentric" carb was used on both Mercury and Lincoln, and on the big Ford trucks. It was never known for fuel economy, and almost every one I've seen leaked somewhere. They can be a chore to rebuild. When gas was a quarter a gallon, no one worried about economy. Overdrive helped, but city driving seldom reached a speed where it would be triggered, so the revs stayed high. That is why many of us installed a switch to parallel the governor and provide a ground to make it kick on. It gave us six forward speeds, but we always had to be sure that it wasn't engaged when reverse was called for.
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| TomO | -- 09-05-2011 @ 9:00 AM |
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Tracker, I would look for a good used core at a swap meet and have that rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder. As Supereal said, they can be a challenge to get rebuilt correctly. By sending in a core, you will still have your original one to use until you are sure the rebuilt one is good. Once that you are satisfied that the rebuilt one is working correctly, have your original one rebuilt for a spare. Tom
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| Tracker | -- 09-06-2011 @ 7:19 PM |
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Thanks ....I would not know how to set up switch as you describe but I have been getting a lot of help on the OD from Fifth Avenue. They gave us a check list of things to do on the OD...at first pass it lookslike the relay may be weak and working intermittently. Regards Tracker
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| Tracker | -- 09-06-2011 @ 7:27 PM |
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Tom ..great advice. I did find a core carb from a Merc O Matic ...it looks pretty much the same except it has a manifold choke rather than the cannister choke mounted high on the carb. I will definately have the core re built first before sending my working ( poorly ) carb off for several mos. BTW, I received a scam e-mail from Spain offering to sell me this part w/no description or even what it was. I had advertised in the Forum Classifieds as sometime back some one was selling NOS carbs but no response from that ad . Regards Tracker
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| Tracker | -- 09-08-2011 @ 10:45 AM |
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Tom We tried the method you suggested on starting the car and shutting it off ...then checking gas line for leaks and it was right where you said it would be....at the bottom of the carb..it was evaporating so fast we could have never found it otherwise. The smell is gone ( right after I purchased a new carb from a member in NC ) No matter...now I have a spare to rebuild which is far better than the core I have. Do you charge for this ??? At the rate I am spending to fix this car I may have to pay you with Green Stamps ! Thanks to everyone for the help and advice...many knowlegable people on this forum always ready to help out greenhorns like me. Regards Tracker
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| TomO | -- 09-09-2011 @ 7:18 AM |
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I am glad that you found the leak. Now you know where to look when you replace the carburetor. The pot metal in these old carburetors is slowly self destructing and as the fitting just has a gasket to keep the fuel in the carburetor, it is a very difficult area to seal. Fixing the leak should make an improvement in your gas mileage as well as removing a fire hazard. The rebuilder should be careful to make sure that the fitting has not been over tightened, damaging the pot metal. If so, he should install a brass sleeve and seal it with gasoline and alcohol proof adhesive, then install the original fitting with a new gasket. No, I do not charge for my advice. Some day I may need your help to solve a problem and that will be enough of a reward. Tom
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| Ron Westwood | -- 09-20-2011 @ 10:04 PM |
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Tracker- 1950-51 Mercs should have narrow pulleys & belts. Chances are there has been an engine swap if the all of the pulleys (i.e. crank, generator, pumps) are wide ones. Does the oil filter bolt to the head via head bolts or smaller, separate bolts? Is the timing gear cover cast iron or aluminum? Is the distributor body cast iron or aluminum?
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| TomO | -- 09-21-2011 @ 8:04 AM |
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Tracker and Ron, I must have been asleep when I posted that the 52 was the first Mercury with the narrow belts. When the change was made to 2 belts for the water pumps, the narrow belts were introduced. Thanks Ron for correcting me. Tom
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| supereal | -- 09-21-2011 @ 10:24 AM |
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Almost always, failure for an OD to shift properly lies in the governor. The exceptions include bad holding points in the solenoid. There are two windings, one to pull the solenoid, the other to hold it engaged. It may pull, then immediately drop out, as if it hadn't engaged at all.If you need a diagram of the overdrive control circuit, I can post one.
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| Tracker | -- 10-15-2011 @ 11:00 AM |
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Ron ...been under the weather and off the air for awhile. After reading all the comments and getting a Mercury Shop Manual, I was suspicious of the engine being the original as I was told when I acquired the car. A reputable flathead mechanic called me to say it was an 8BA engine that someone had put the Merc heads, dip stick and Carb/Intake on to resemble a Merc. It has a 3 3/4 crank. I contacted the seller who developed severe memory loss as to how that could have happened and was less than helpful. To say that I was upset and flabergasted would be understatement not only about the engine but the attitude of the seller as well. It was a though he was saying tuff ...its your fault you got cheated. He even tried to sell me on the idea the dealer must have swapped out the engine when the car was new and had problems. BS !!!! All that having been said, its time to suck it up and move on. I am now looking to purchase a 1951 Merc engine to have rebuilt to original specs. The engine I have is running well and I will eventually re build it for use in something but its not the same. I want an original Merc CV which is what I thought I had before I spent the Mother Load bringing it up to new car appearance. Regards Tracker
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| Tracker | -- 10-15-2011 @ 11:01 AM |
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Ron ...been under the weather and off the air for awhile. After reading all the comments and getting a Mercury Shop Manual, I was suspicious of the engine being the original as I was told when I acquired the car. A reputable flathead mechanic called me to say it was an 8BA engine that someone had put the Merc heads, dip stick and Carb/Intake on to resemble a Merc. It has a 3 3/4 crank. I contacted the seller who developed severe memory loss as to how that could have happened and was less than helpful. To say that I was upset and flabergasted would be understatement not only about the engine but the attitude of the seller as well. It was a though he was saying tuff ...its your fault you got cheated. He even tried to sell me on the idea the dealer must have swapped out the engine when the car was new and had problems. BS !!!! All that having been said, its time to suck it up and move on. I am now looking to purchase a 1951 Merc engine to have rebuilt to original specs. The engine I have is running well and I will eventually re build it for use in something but its not the same. I want an original Merc CV which is what I thought I had before I spent the Mother Load bringing it up to new car appearance. Regards Tracker
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| TomO | -- 10-16-2011 @ 6:44 AM |
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Tracker, That hurts. Now that you have the shop manual, you should be able to determine if the engine that you buy has all of the Mercury items. Tom
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| Tracker | -- 10-17-2011 @ 9:34 AM |
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Tom I had no idea there would be so much response to the Original Engine post or where this was headed. It started with the water pumps w/wide belts when I read that 51 came with narrow belts. Once burned ...twice forearmed..the next CM engine I buy I will pull the heads & check the crank or walk away from the sale. The engine is one thing but not the end of the world since the one I have is running OK. The biggest disappointment of all was the old guy I bought it from. He is the type that gives old people a bad rap ...in other words a lying SOB. I thought him to be the nicest old man I could have possibly dealt with until I questioned him about the origin of my current engine. His parting comment was " I'm not going to make it right because I don't have to " was all I really needed to know. The dealer swap was the most outrageous BS I have ever heard and humorus because it was so stupid.
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| supereal | -- 10-22-2011 @ 2:58 PM |
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Anyone buying a collector car should have it checked by a shop that knows their stuff before handing over the cash. Not a year goes by but someone brings us a car after the fact, and finds out they have been "had". There is a whole industry out there designed to part the unsuspecting from their money. If a seller makes claims not backed up by inspection or receipts, drop the deal, regardless of how "nice" the seller appears. If they balk at an inspection, run the other way, even if you really want the car.
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