| smiley | -- 05-30-2012 @ 3:17 AM |
|
I fired up the 40 conv. to back out of the garage, half way out it quit just like you turned the key off. I have nothing no electric to anything. Is there a master fuse that could have blown? Had to have wife help push back in garage, will have time this evening to look for problem. I love old cars. Thanks Kenny
|
|
| kubes40 | -- 05-30-2012 @ 5:37 AM |
|
I am not by any means an electrical wizard but think I can offer some worthwhile advice. As everything is dead - no lights, horn, etc. I'd look at the most obvious (possible) cause. That being the battery condition and / or connections to the battery. IF the battery and connections test good, check that the ignition switch is intact and in good shape.
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 05-30-2012 @ 5:44 AM |
|
there is a circuit breaker/ballast resistor on the inner firewall, up high, these very seldom go bad but check the connections and temporarily jump across the breaker to check
|
|
| supereal | -- 05-30-2012 @ 10:59 AM |
|
There is no fuse or circuit breaker between the main battery feed and the ignition coil. The two main weak links are the ignition switch and the resistor. The ignition switch gets unpredictable when the moveable element wears grooves in the Bakelite body. They can be sanded out, but the replacement is not expensive. The resistors have a problem with the connection between the nichrome element and the terminals. The resistor expands and contracts as it heats and cools, and often pulls away from the ends. The nichrome wire is very hard to solder. It is better to fasten the ends under the terminals. If everything on the car is dead, the battery feed, the heavy yellow wire, is probably either loose or broken. Only the lighting circuit runs thru the circuit breaker. If you need a wiring diagram of your car, I'll post one.
|
|
| kubes40 | -- 05-30-2012 @ 11:05 AM |
|
Super, kind of a side track here... do you know the voltage specification of the ignition resistor with the switch in the "ON" position? How about when cranking? I am only guessing 4.5v Thanks in advance... Mike
|
|
| supereal | -- 05-30-2012 @ 3:16 PM |
|
Hi Mike! The nominal voltage at the coil input terminal with at least one of the point sets in the closed position, is 3.5 volts before cranking. The the resistor value varies with the current, as is intended. As the temperature of the resistor windings increases, it presents a higher resistance, compensating for the higher voltage of the charging part of the system. The resistor winding is the same stuff that was used in toasters. It was a really inventive way to contain the voltage so the points wouldn't burn up at higher speeds. When cranking, the voltage will fall due to the load of the starter motor. It isn't unusual to see it fall to 2 volts, or less at the coil. That is why we use a diode bypass to boost coil voltage when cranking. It really helps hot starts. Regards, Bob.
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 05-30-2012 @ 4:50 PM |
|
well d*mn what is that ugly thing on the inside firewall, anyway??-since you guys tell me it is not any sort of connection to the battery-so don't keep me in suspense tell us what it is!!
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 05-30-2012 @ 7:59 PM |
|
go over to the post on fordbarn and look up the info on the resistor I was referring to. on 6 volts it was cutting the voltage back to 2 volts. our cars won't run on 2 volts
|
|
| smiley | -- 05-31-2012 @ 3:02 AM |
|
Thanks for the info, I didn't get a chance to check out 40 yesterday hopefully ill have time tonight. Probably the switch since battery and cables are new,Ill post my findings. Kenny
|
|
| kubes40 | -- 05-31-2012 @ 6:50 AM |
|
I would not assume that because the battery and cables are new they are good. Save yourself some possible frustration and TEST the battery and each cables connection.
|
|
| smiley | -- 06-10-2012 @ 7:41 PM |
|
Got the 40 going again! I put a jumper wire across the resister and nothing happened, so checked the NEW battery, yep goner . Put in new one and all is better. Now I have a spare resister. Hopefully it will work on more than a 40. Thanks for everyones help, this is a great forum. Kenny
|
|
| supereal | -- 06-11-2012 @ 9:57 AM |
|
Kenny: Be sure to check the charging voltage of your car. Overcharging is one major cause of battery failure. With the engine running fast enough to close the regulator cutout, the voltage should read 7.5 volts, more or less.
|
|
| smiley | -- 06-12-2012 @ 3:31 AM |
|
Thanks for the tip, I'll check that voltage. Thats probably what happened to the battery. Kenny
|
|
| swmddo | -- 08-15-2012 @ 6:04 AM |
|
I don't have the circuit breaker/resistor panel, but I assume I can just mount the resistor on the firewall? I have decided that my 6-volt coil (internal resistance) is a problem, so I plan on getting Skip to send me a rebuilt one that uses the resistor. I tried the wire/diode between the starter side of the solenoid and the input terminal on the coil, but I could not tell it made much difference. Steve
|
|
| supereal | -- 08-15-2012 @ 10:38 AM |
|
We make up a small panel to accomodate the resistor and several push button reset circuit breakers, and mount it where the original panel was fastened. This allows us to protect several individual circuits, such as lighting. Don't fuse the circuit from the generator to the ammeter because if it is opened while the engine is running, damage to the generator may result. As for the diode circuit, the wire from the diode to the coil should be checked to see that the diode is properly set up. With the diode wire off the coil, put a voltmeter between that wire and a ground and run the solenoid. If you don't see voltage, the diode is facing the wrong way, and is draining the coil voltage thru the starter motor. When the starter is energized, you should see 5-6 volts at the coil with the diode connected. Without it, the voltage will drop considerably when the starter is running, sometimes less than 2 volts, causing hard starting. This message was edited by supereal on 8-15-12 @ 10:39 AM
|
|
| swmddo | -- 08-15-2012 @ 3:45 PM |
|
Ok, so I connect the diode wire to the starter side of the solenoid, right? Then put a voltmeter between the end of the diode wire and ground. Then I run the solenoid. If I get voltage, I should be OK. If not, I switch ends of the diode. Is a 1.5amp, 1000v diode a good enough one to use? Thanks again.
|
|
| 40 Coupe | -- 08-16-2012 @ 4:30 AM |
|
Alen: On the 40 the circuit breaker is only for the light circuit and is not wired into the ignition circuit. The resistor drops the 6V battery about in half to the coil so about 3.5V but only when one or both of the points in the distributor are closed. The ignition resistor is encased in a metal shield but it is electrically connected to the shield, since the shield has the two mounting holes it has to be kept isolated from other parts of the car that are connected to the battery, such as all of the body or the frame. Ford mounted it on a insulating piece of compressed cardboard and then mounted the cardboard to the inside of the firewall using separate screws to isolate the resistor.
|
|
| TomO | -- 08-16-2012 @ 7:29 AM |
|
Steve, what year car are you working on? the 1933-1938 cars used a resister and fuse block. the 38-40 cars used a circuit breaker and resister assembly, mounted on the firewall The 41 to early 47 used a resister and circuit breaker mounted on the fire wall. These are available from several vendors. The late 47 and 48 mounted the resistor on the coil. The 49-53 cars used a coil with an internal resistor. Tom
|
|
| swmddo | -- 08-20-2012 @ 3:42 AM |
|
Tom, I have a '48. I have been using a 6-volt tubular coil...no resistor. I had NO problems before I did some engine work and put in new spark plugs, wires, points, condenser. All worked well for awhile. Then the sluggish starter motor began after the car had been running for awhile. I put the diode in, per Supereal, and also found that the cable to the starter was lose. The copper threaded screw coming from it, does not lend itself to staying tight. When cold and tight, all is OK. When the car is hot, the cable seems to have loosened some. Not sure if this is the problem or not. Getting frustrated, as everything has checked out OK. Steve
|
|
| TomO | -- 08-22-2012 @ 10:40 AM |
|
Steve, You will probably have to replace the stud on the starter in order to properly tighten the nut. Make sure that the stud is SAE threads and only use an SAE nut. The metric stud will require a metric nut. The studs are easily stripped and usually replaced when a starter is rebuilt. Some re-builders just use what ever they have on hand and others are very careful to make sure that they replace it with original style. The poor connection could very well be the cause of your sluggish starter. If your points were not set on a distributor machine, they could cause timing problems, which could make it seem as if the starter is dragging. To check if this is the problem, try cranking the engine with the ignition switch off. If the starter turns OK, you may have timing problems. Tom
|
|
| supereal | -- 08-22-2012 @ 5:10 PM |
|
Over the years, I have found lots of poor connections between the battery cables and the terminals. Most have the terminals either cast on the cables, or crimped on. Battery acid infiltrates that connection, and forms a high resistance connection. It can't be seen, but will absolutely kill the whole system. There is no other reason the whole car goes dead.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 08-24-2012 @ 11:10 AM |
|
Tom, I think that may be the problem. How difficult is it to remove the stud? Do I have to remove the starter first? Will try the cranking with ignition off, too. Thanks Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 08-24-2012 @ 2:14 PM |
|
The crazy thing is that when the engine is cold, it starts up almost immediately. I would not suspect the distributor at that point. But once the car has run for 10 minutes, turning the engine off, and then trying to restart, the starter is very slow and sluggish...if I keep cranking, it kind of jumps back into life. It does sound like a connection problem. The idiots who pulled the starter when it didn't need it, probably stripped the stud, and when it gets hot, it expands and the cable doesn't make good contact until it cools off. Steve
|
|
| TomO | -- 08-25-2012 @ 8:09 AM |
|
You will need to remove the starter and the I believe the stud is soldered to a wire from field coil. I have never replaced one, as my local generator / starter repair shop is very reasonable in these types of repairs. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 8-25-12 @ 8:12 AM
|
|
| supereal | -- 08-25-2012 @ 10:26 AM |
|
If the starter terminal turns as the nut is tightened, it is more than likely that the connection inside the starter body has been damaged. Given the amount of current reqired to operate the starter, it very soon arcs at the loose connection, and usually burns off at the joint to the brush. A bad connection causes heat, which raises resistance, until the starter won't run. If it cools off, it can often allow the starter to run, at least a small bit. There should be a locknut on the terminal stud below the cable and securing nut. If the locknut is loose, or missing, the terminal will turn. Too often someone gets heavy handed with a wrench on lots of bolts and studs, and it comes to us to be fixed.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 08-25-2012 @ 1:20 PM |
|
Yes, to both of you! The stud is stripped, and obviously won't keep the cable tight. It does get hot, and causes all the problems. I called C&G and they had a stud kit fr $10. I should be able to pull the starter and replace the stud. Thanks. Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 09-01-2012 @ 10:02 AM |
|
Well, got the new stud in the starter, and it works great. I still have a problem, most likely with the fuel pump or carb now, since once I stop the engine and start it up again, it just cranks and cranks...eventually, I can get it going if I flood the carb, but that isn't the right way. Steve
|
|
| supereal | -- 09-07-2012 @ 11:13 AM |
|
Check your fuel line from the tank to the firewall. We are seeing lots of nearly clogged lines. It is only a quarter inch line, just big enough to supply the necessary amount of fuel. I suspect that alcohol in fuel is accelerating the interior rust of the line. Also be sure that the flex line is not collapsing like a soda straw. As the car starts when there is ample fuel, it usually means poor gas delivery to replenish fuel lost to evaporation when the engine compartment is hot. Try giving the air cleaner a couple of shots of starter fluid when it cranks a long time. If it takes off, you can be sure the fuel system is at fault.
|
|
| EFV-8 Club Forum : | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum |
| Topic: | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=14&Topic=4723 |